Captured PCs - What should be done?

[cdnspr]

Yeah, permadeath /imprisonment's a tricky thing. i've found that when both sides get together and actually talk to eachother about what they expect/desire, this kinda thing can go alot smoother.

One thing I don't really care to hear is that people who don't want permadeath are too attached to their characters. Yeah, often that's the case, but not always. Personally, I wouldn't want to see my main character permed (yet) because I feel I haven't accomplished the roleplay i've set out to do.

As far as imprisonment goes, there's usually an acceptable compromise. Busting out a couple days later is too soft and permanent imprisonment is a little too much. I once had one of my characters locked up for just over a month, real-time. It seemed fair to me, and the other side.

...

On a related note, Bael's been wanted for questioning for nearly a month now. As fun as pretending to be Kyle Rendell is, I can't do it forever :P If things stay this way, he just might have to turn himself in.

[Subal]

Personally i felt a bit upset when mathell escaped, did i make a fuss over it thought, no. I think what upsets me the most about situations like this is what is the point of taking all the effort into catching the guy if in reality i know it means absolutly nothing? Brimlor could not sit and watch mathell 24/7 and he had no chance of trying to capture him in his escape, and it was a bit disappointing that soon as he was put in jail, i was able to make a bet with another player that if he wasnt tried, within 3 days he would be jail broke, Hence what happend.

Its the point to where if we put someone in jail for murder and it was witnessed by numerous players, the situation Feels it is always the same. well atleasnt 99% of the time. They jail brake, no matter what we do to stop them.

Please take no offence to this guys as its mearly my opinion, and not shots at anyone for what they did in the scenario we are discussing.

[roguethree]

I'm all for permadeath. A signus equals a divine intervention from your chosen god, and allow temple npc's to perform resurrections at a high cost, same with PC's with the appropriate spell components. All you need is some friends to carry your body back to safety.

"But what if I die deep in the Necropolis, all by myself?"

Exactly.

As far as imprisonment goes, make the punishment fit the crime. If Banites capture you, well, unless you've got some impressive Escape Artist skills, that's probably the end. Part of good roleplay is being able to fail with your character and being able to say "goodbye" when that character's story has found its end. Sure, I have an idea of where I want my character to go, but his story is at the mercy of everyone else's story. Maybe I'd like to be a champion for the Triumvirate. Maybe a Triad-hating Banite targets me, knocks me unconscious, drags me back to the Obelisk of Eeeeville, tortures the hell out of me, then slits my throat. Sucks for me, but that's a consequence of trying to fill a given role. I'd honestly be a bit insulted and disappointed if someone let my PC go when their PC would have every intention of gutting me for his dark god.

When I'm in-game, I'm not telling my story; I'm working with the other players and DM's to tell a story, and sometimes, my part in the plot is over before I'd like it to be.

[BattlePixie]

When I'm in-game, I'm not telling my story; I'm working with the other players and DM's to tell a story, and sometimes, my part in the plot is over before I'd like it to be.

I don't think this can be said any better

[Urithrand]

Hear hear, I think many people would do well to try to live by this mantra!

[prismaticcrow]

I've said it before, and I will say it again: I do not want to put months (or some characters, years) of real time, effort, and and RP into a character only to have him or her be removed permanently because a group of my peers decides it's time to get him.

The decision should normally be out of the hands of others because if a group of players, or a DM, wants another player captured or killed it's going to happen. Period. Any group of determined good or bad guys can get together and get someone else, eventually. When you take the decision out of the hands of the player involved, you cheapen his experience on the server unless the situaion is also fun for him.

Anyone who's play style includes playing one character almost exclusively over a long period of time is going to take their character seriously. Having someone else arbitarily decide when your story is over is depressing. Why play and put time and effort in if someone else can just end your character because they've decided they don't like you?

Look, I'm not opposed to permanent removal of a character if the RP and the situation fit and the player had fun doing it, but ultimately it must be the player who decides if it fun or not. Only you know what is fun for yourself, and someone else shouldn't be allowed to decide that for you. We all play for different reasons, with different play styles, and have our own kind of fun in different ways.

I will offer a suggestion: only consider permanent removal to characters who are actively seeking the destruction of other characters. The way I see it, if you play a character who is actively trying to kill someone, then you must be prepared to accept that fact that they will, in turn, try to kill you. The way not to do it, would be to simply go aftyer someone because of some kind of faction allegiance issue. If a player is not actively out there hunting down the enemy, he realistically shouldn't be targeted anyway. The enemy has bigger fish to fry.

The above is, of course, entirely my opinion on the issue and not to be taken as a demand of any kind. I just so happen to feel strongly on this issue.

[Urithrand]

Prismatic, please try to remember that this is an open discussion, not an argument with you personally. Nobody is trying to cheapen what you believe, we all have different opinions on the matter, no new rules about players perm'ing players is suddenly going to spring into action here. Perma-death has always been in the hands of DMs only, and for the forseeable future, it's likely to stay that way. That said, it's certainly not going to disappear entirely. If you want to stay alive, don't take life threatening risks, it's that simple.

What we find frustrating as DMs is not the fact that people escape, it's that people expect to escape all the time, and take insane risks safe in the knowledge that they'll be fine in the morning. This is what we find unacceptable.

Despite this - which is relatively OT, we're trying to determine what's the best course of action when players repeatedly get jailed. Should we - as DMs - be responsible to think up more and more insane reasons to pop that person out of jail? Because the general concensus on our side of the fence is fast becoming a resounding no. If people get caught, at what point do we say "Sorry dude/dudette, it's just too much this time, you're out."?

Incidentally, with all due respect, this:

The way not to do it, would be to simply go aftyer someone because of some kind of faction allegiance issue.

Is flying in the face of everything we try to achieve as DMs. Faction v faction conflict is what we try for with every event we plan.

[Phantom Lamb]

Let me remind everyone that Sundren is a permadeath server -- regardless of your personal feelings on the matter, it is on the table here. That being said, we have exercised it extremely rarely.

I don't want to come off rudely, but whether the player feels his character is ready for permadeath or not has no bearing on the permadeath outcome. It will always require DM judgement, and will always be a result of the IC situation that character is in.

We're discussing some options so that getting captured seems more realistic and worthwhile currently. We'll let you know how that turns out

[GodBeastX]

For this discussion I think I should be slightly clearer. A DM grabbing someone and tossing them into a cell is completely different than a player. Where a DM probably already thought it through to how it's going to go, players do it on whatever whims occur to them. There's an expectance from players that DMs should honor their captures on their terms, as DMs we have to be conscious of outside factors beyong "I just want this guy captured and killed cuz he's my enemy".

As I said before, I know players don't want their stories to end, not all of you, but some of you. The PVP rule is clear that chopping someone up isn't up to a player for perming, but that doesn't speak on captures. I'm looking to define what captured means for players. Generally, should it automatically lead to perming? Should it just tend to lead to extended jail time? Fines? Etc etc. That's what the discussion is about. Everyone has their own reason for their feelings, but I'm trying to gauge an outcome that DMs can enact that players tend to expect. I don't want players to go "Why bother trying to stop the evil if he's going to just be free to do whatever."

[Vaelek]

That's the thing? How am I supposed to know what's good enough for you? For me, a great death is a firing squad. That might be anti-climatic for you.

And it's not about Mathell, Mathell was in the situation and it's not poor RP on your part to be in cells or be rescued, etc. Nobody is pissed either. It's just a valid question raised. What's the expected outcome of a capture? As you can see there's mixed results just from the little discussion.

Perhaps I misworded myself a little there Snoop, if so I apologize.
I wasn't trying to point fingers or belittle the question, I was just trying to rush in and be clear as Mathell's imprisonment and release was the most recent that I'm aware of.

As for anti-climatic endings, I'd say the firing squad sounds fine -- If I had the excellent doses of RP I did beforehand while Mathell was confined.

Aerick had to watch over a captive Mathell for a time, and while the RP was good, in the back of my mind, I felt terrible for Mathell's player to just sit there and rot in real time.

This is more what I'm addressing though, when I say that.
I didn't at all feel that I was rotting in a jail cell, as Mathell had many visitors, and his captors were extremely generous as players in keeping me company with some seriously noteworthy RP.

This branch of RP, which I hadn't personally tasted before, was such a welcome change from the old fireplace and regular routine that I really was okay with an ordinary execution after it. Because I felt Mathell had provided what I had originally intended for him to -- Solid, enjoyable RP.
That's all I meant by saying that I would want it to be done in a good RP fashion.

Obviously it has been made clear that people share different opinions on it, but I can speak for at least myself in saying sometimes the best RP is the one you know won't last.

All that said though of course, I do have to admit I enjoyed and still do being able to play Mathell now, especially with the prospect of the more important events coming up. So I certainly am grateful to Snoop for his hilarious rescue with the Caretaker, but I wouldn't have punched my monitor if he hadn't made it in time.

[GodBeastX]

I replied to you, Vaelek, but my statement was in general Alot of people say "As long as I get an epic ending" and I'm saying how do I know what that is?

[TheBlankStare]

I don't want players to go "Why bother trying to stop the evil if he's going to just be free to do whatever."

This is the real center of the problem and right now this is what both sides end up thinking when faced with a capture scenario. What's a DM to do? You can't really have people escaping from prisons all the time or it leads to the silliness a while back where everyone was making jokes about the ineptitude of the Legion. DMs use permadeath very rarely in Sundren so that seems off the table except in dire circumstances as well.

Here's what I'd think would be good. Players capturing players should no longer happen. Get rid of captures except as part of a DM run story. This should solve almost all of the concerns about what DMs need to do in such a situation. Instead of getting captured the defeated party should end up in a place similar to the Forest of Eternal Night but not necessarily dead. They could have real time amount of time that they've got to spend there. I'd say a week or so before they can come back into the world. It could be role played as laying low for a while, nursing grievous wounds or plotting in the darkness for your revenge.

This kind of thing does two things. It gives a penalty to the prisoner without killing or getting rid of them permanently and it gives a reward to the winner. They get to see their efforts pay off (for a time anyway).

With this kind of thing happening though I'd totally recommend getting rid of the amnesia rule involved in PvP situations. If your assailant's face was covered or they were in disguise and you lose the fight you won't know who they were but you'd likely be able to say they were hinnish or gnomish or what not.

Of course if the players involved in the capture agree to RP an escape after the capture that's okay too. We could just make subdual fighting not end in a trip to the pseudo Forest of Eternal Night.

[GodBeastX]

Amnesia rules being gotten rid of won't happen for respawns ever. Respawning is a "Grace" to me. If people are ressed then it's more IC and you can remember whatever you want, that's how I feel.

[Nwilmen]

Even though I don't play a character who makes active efforts against an opposing faction, and I might not run the same risks as others who do, I figured I'd throw in some stuff I've experienced in the past on other characters and servers.

One thing that struck me as being a little odd in Sundren my first few days here, were the open presence of Banites and other evil characters. I'm still not aware of the details, so somebody please fill me in, but it sounded like they were given some sort of official pardon so long as they remained peaceful, or what have you. But of course, everyone "knew" what they did in their spare time, behind masks and out of sight. That being tolerated seemed to me that people could create evil characters under the impression that they were untouchable and could easily avoid capture so long as they weren't blatant.

In other settings, I've role played in environments where evil characters had to be very careful about who they revealed their alignments/faiths to, and did a lot more skulking around, lest they be called out. That took a lot more finesse and consideration to play out, and evil characters who were more subtle or careful seemed to have even more influence on the overall plot, than those who walked around snarling in black outfits. I'm not saying a good RPer can't play a blatantly evil character, but obviously that player should expect the possibility of something bad happening to their character. Either way, it should not be "easy" to be evil.

The same goes for crusaders of Good who make it their business to go around smiting evil and generally rooting out evil-aligned factions. Of course, this character may tend to have more allies and resources to make survival/escape/whatever a little more likely.

That being said, however, I think creativity is the key. Capture doesn't always have to end in only two outcomes, death or escape. Maybe (for the sake of further RP/storylines/fun of everyone involved) a group of evil characters who have captured someone might use that victim to further their evil agenda, rather than merely as a sacrifice. Conversion, a curse, disfigurement, experimentation, torture, whatever can be agreed upon between the players involved, and within the rules. But be creative, and do whatever you can within reason to enhance and extend RP, rather than cut it off.

As far as punishment goes for captured criminals, death, jail time and fines are all good options, though I wonder if permanent stat damage could be considered as a severe, yet not deadly consequence to teach players and characters that they simply can't get off scott free. I've seen rogues who betray their guilds have fingers cut off (Dex damage), for example, or others who have been subject to days of torture given Con damage. This has been employed as a response to a first Very Serious offence, or the result of many little offences. In either case, it's the last resort until actual death or execution.

These are just observations I'm throwing out here, as I have no personal experience with having had a character jailed or permakilled. Though I have, in the case of my characters who do illegal things, RPed them as being extremely careful and with the full expectation that if they are caught, they are potentially dead.

I think everyone agrees that discussion between players is key, and I think creativity might help create more options to prevent situations where factions are mocked for never being able to follow through with captures, and players think they can do whatever they want in a consequence-free environment.

[Phantom Lamb]

With regards to the open Banite question:

It's illegal to be IN the Black Hand, whereas worshiping Bane is not. It's actually not uncommon to openly worship evil deities in FR. Largely, it's done out of fear. So commoners who pay tribute to Bane would be hoping for power or at least not to be trampled by his boot -- which some people fear is looming! But, the organization of the Black Hand is a subset of Banites who are outlawed. They have actively done deeds against the Sundren government. Hope that clarifies