Captured PCs - What should be done?

[GodBeastX]

This isn't something I can put in a poll because I feel it needs discussion and open opinions.

This question comes up now and then after a release or escape from players, but it's a valid question that's never really been asked to the community. So I'm taking this opportunity to ask your opinions, but first let me give the history.

Generally people are at odds on the server. This is going to happen as long as renegade factions are supported on a PW. Players PVP each other, and sometimes players capture each other, good guys and bad guys. The problem on DM shoulders is players have voiced they don't like permadeath, so the burden of explanation relies on DM shoulders of why this person isn't just dead.

So here's the scenario. PVP happens, a person gets subdualed or similar in order to get dragged back to a cell, and then DMs get a message "Hey, I got bob in a cell." (Unfortunately I couldn't log before the message happened so everyone knows I saw it and deep down I curse and wish they just killed the guy so he can respawn) And now the burden on my shoulders is, how do I handle this situation so that nobody gets upset? So far to this day there hasn't been a way. And why not?

Remember, by popular demand people have said they don't want Sundren to be a permadeath server, especially not in player hands. Essentially when you capture someone with murder claims or capital crimes and put them on trial, this is what they are going to get, executed, or when you drag a paladin into a temple of Bane for a sacrifice, that's essentially what they're going to get, excuted. So to avoid this, I give means of escapes or being "Let off the hook" in various methods in order to avoid permakilling a player.

However, it never fails that someone becomes unhappy with this, and why shouldn't they be unhappy? I mean, IC'ly they just caught the Bane of their existence and are ready to do something about it, but really can't because of OOC rule of death. However, what is the alternative? Should players just be able to circumvent the right to respawn rule by grabbing someone and tossing them into a cell and waving bye bye to that character? And while good guys might say "Hang the Banite!" or similar, the door swings both ways. If you get grabbed by someone and fed to vampires, shouldn't the same thing happen to you?

So I guess the question is, what do players expect realistically from DMs in this case? What do you guys think policy should be on this matter so that it is fair for everyone?

[nox74]

Tough call, really.
I think that a good share of this kind of problems should be handed OOC among players i.e. if char A captures char B it should tell OOC that this could evolve into a sacrifice, is char B ready to face this aftermath ? If yes RP to the extreme consequences (if needed), if not the DM should intervene and as you stated "Let off the hook" in case char A wouldnt drop his prey.
This kind of extreme scenario should be handled by hardcore Rplayers previous OOC agreement, otherwise don't poke it with a 10 feet pole.

[Vaelek]

I somewhat hope this isn't related to Mathell's recent imprisonment, but I can relate that I made it clear to the members of Team Good that were involved in keeping him, that I was quite ready to be permed so long as it was done in a good orderly RP fashion.

In general I would expect the same from anyone in a similar position.
I just can't see the character as being fun to play if theres no risk of ever losing him. And as I've had Mathell for quite awhile, I could effectively have him killed off and enjoy the amount hes done.

There are exceptions to that case of course, but I would honestly be surprised if I met a Sundren roleplayer that was genuinely angry over the prospect of permadeath after being captured by an enemy faction.
So long as the chance of escape or satisfying RP was had before such, I'd say the character has done what he was meant to do for you.

How the DMs step into that, I couldn't say with much conviction.
Perhaps organizing some resistance from allies or the prisoner's faction, and allowing the players a chance of it tipping either way. Ultimately, however, I'd assume permadeath to be okay in the long run.
And if someone really threw a major cryparty over just the mention of it, chances are that person isn't doing too well relationally with the opposing roleplayers. It just doesn't cast a good impression when you can't ever accept that there are other characters you could develop after closing a storyline for one other.

[AsuraKing]

Personally I think that if it's a big enough snag, for instance if PC1 has been battling PC2's faction directly and pissing off their faction leaders for a long enough time and then PC1 get's captured and theres a boat load of RP and stuff then i think the DMs should be able to rarely choose if PC2's faction executed PC1...

basically i think permadeath should happen, rarely, but should happen if it truly does fit... it's not like we have a bunch of immortals walking around... DM's have the "master" part for a reason, they should be able to use it.

[prismaticcrow]

I've always been opposed to any sort of perma-death or perma-incarceration that was not allowed by the player itself. I think it depends on the situation and the RP involved. As Mathell said, if the RP is good and rewarding, perma-death can sometimes be okay, but the ultimate judge would have to be the player. I would hate for a DM to judge the RP as "good" whilst I would rather not have my character dead at the time.

Aerick had to watch over a captive Mathell for a time, and while the RP was good, in the back of my mind, I felt terrible for Mathell's player to just sit there and rot in real time. While Aerick would have tried to stop any escape attempt, as a player I was actually hoping something would happen to see to his release or resolution (I was hoping a potato would be involved but alas).

When it comes to any kind of capture, I'm not bothered by it so long as a manner of escape or non-permanent resolution is available. The bottom line is we play for fun, and if perma-death/capture is not fun for the player, then it shouldn't be on the table without extenuating circumstances.

[Lothoir]

The bottom line is we play for fun, and if perma-death/capture is not fun for the player, then it shouldn't be on the table without extenuating circumstances.

If being captured, bound and gagged by your enemies and left to rot in a cell while being watched 24/7 by a high level guard isn't an extenuating circumstance, then what is?

Vaelek is right, if you knew there were no consequences to your actions then how much fun can it be knowing that you can do everything and keep getting off scot-free? It's the element of danger that makes risks so rewarding.

DnD is a storytelling game; stories come to an end. After that story ends you can just make a new character and work on a different story, or add to an existing story with a different angle.

Some people get too attached to their characters, but a character is just a tool to help create a story and nothing more. Your character is not you, your character is not your best friend. Your character is not even a person, it's just an idea in your head that's been turned into 1's and 0's.

[Urithrand]

There are a small number of people (very sad, unfortunate people) who take games just a liiiiiiiittle bit too seriously. I have had people explode in offensive, violent, angry tells purely at the possible idea that their character might actually face a risk for the foolhardy task they're trying to perform. Needless to say, I'm not terribly patient with these people.

Perma-death/imprisonment should be just as real as that signus you received for a risk that paid off, or the 1,000 exp reward you got when you gambled and won. Failure is just as much a part of humanity as success, and unfortunately not everyone is capable of seeing this - hence why the decision for whether a character is perma-killed/imprisoned cannot remain in the hands of the player. There are some who would embrace it, but an unfortunate number who would scream and shout and refuse to let go of their blankie.

In short - people are usually just a little bit too comfortable with the idea that their character is ultimately invulnerable, and will jump headlong into stupid risks, often with just the tiniest glimmer of chance of success - but they don't mind because they're just positive that the DM will get them off the hook when it goes wrong. Not a view I readily share.

[GodBeastX]

I somewhat hope this isn't related to Mathell's recent imprisonment, but I can relate that I made it clear to the members of Team Good that were involved in keeping him, that I was quite ready to be permed so long as it was done in a good orderly RP fashion.

That's the thing? How am I supposed to know what's good enough for you? For me, a great death is a firing squad. That might be anti-climatic for you.

And it's not about Mathell, Mathell was in the situation and it's not poor RP on your part to be in cells or be rescued, etc. Nobody is pissed either. It's just a valid question raised. What's the expected outcome of a capture? As you can see there's mixed results just from the little discussion.

I mean, I come from places where a wrong move is just the end, and sometimes players perm you and sometimes DMs did. You have a breather and hop back in with another char. So for me, my being in a cell, if nixing me is the outcome, there you go, wasn't up to me to ever decide.

So as I personally feel like I'm walking on glass around some characters sometimes I don't want to do anything to piss people off, but sometimes people aren't satisfied with results because of it. I'd rather players voice their opinions and we can get a black & white viewpoint down so people know what's expected from now on.

[BattlePixie]

I agree with Lothoir.

every dog has his day and ever day has its sunset.

There has to be an understanding that if you make a character and turn them into the force of good / evil and are actively persuing your enemies, there will be a situation where you may die... permanently. If you want you character to live out their full and natural life, don't put them in a position where they are a major player for their faction and in the eye of the conflict storm.

When I make my characters, I have an idea on where I want their story to go. Sometimes this includes "if i take this class or persue this objective, I expect at some point my character will be dead or in jail." Killers get caught, and really bad people do really bad things!

I think players have to understand that if you want to be the pivital cog in a major faction or storyline, you'll probably end up dead or in jail because either you stand in the way of the bad guys or the good guys are going to stop you. Its what gives us the world shaping events on the server.

However there is a responsibility to do the perma death right. Understanding that it could happen is key, but also the courtesy that the super holy roller paladin that has been killing vampires his whole life doesn't trip getting out of bed one day and fall on his sword never to be seen again.

Syne killed by Peri --> epic end
Peri's torture by banites and crucifiction --> that would have been an epic end
All the permideaths at the end of the event in the necropolis --> that's the climax to character stories that's worthy of permadeath

[Espada]

There are a small number of people (very sad, unfortunate people) who take games just a liiiiiiiittle bit too seriously. I have had people explode in offensive, violent, angry tells purely at the possible idea that their character might actually face a risk for the foolhardy task they're trying to perform. Needless to say, I'm not terribly patient with these people.

In short - people are usually just a little bit too comfortable with the idea that their character is ultimately invulnerable, and will jump headlong into stupid risks, often with just the tiniest glimmer of chance of success - but they don't mind because they're just positive that the DM will get them off the hook when it goes wrong. Not a view I readily share.

Stop talking about me Uri you and I both know I actively avoid dangerous situations.

[Urithrand]

LOL!

And for the record, not all perma-deaths are epic. Kolomar Biddle just disappeared into the ether without a trace *sniff*

[Phantom Lamb]

DMs have a very hard time validating capture releases without making the factions seem weak. It isn't fair to the story on the server if we always need bend over backwards to spring captured people from a cell.

Pending on the crime, people can be released after paying fines, serving time, or in a prisoner exchange. Jail breaks should be highly infrequent. In the past, we tried letting people do this all-to-often so the captured player could get back to having fun. The end result was, no one wanted to turn over criminals to the Legion anymore -- they knew they'd simply escape!

In my eyes, permadeath is a better fate than sitting in a jail cell anyway. No one enjoys logging in and spending their time alone in a cell, talking in tells.

[Urithrand]

Yeah. Sitting in the FEN talking in tells instead ^^

[Peridan]

It is a difficult thing to balance the OOC feelings of the players and the IC actual events taking place in the server. And whenever there are people who spend a lot of time and effort into making characters, there will always be that small knot of disgruntlement whenever a PC is placed in a situation that has no particular way out, and will have to be terminated.

That being said, I don't think it's wrong for DM's to perma a character if a few conditions have been met. First, the situation is dire. I mean extremely, holy crap the walls are closing in, dire. If there's no real way out of a capture or a slaying, there shouldn't be some magical deus ex machina to get them out of it. However, if a PC is captured and placed within a cell, I do think the PC should be allowed a limited chance to escape. Guards change shifts, the PC has a still spell she can use while chained, really good locking skills, his allies come for him, etc.

These failing, I do think the player should roll with the punches if the DM asks him/her to. If for instance no one had found Peridan stuck to that tree, I would have been slightly miffed, but I would accept the fact that there was no way for him to be bleeding out bolted to a oak tree in the middle of the crossroads. A certain amount of maturity is expected, or at least hoped for on this server.

[Espada]

Being captured by the legion and thrown into jail and being captured by some derranged banite are two different things PL. Besides, people can always log onto a different character till their jail term is over.

Patience is key.


Though... believe "Evil faction" Players should take in a bit of restraint and keep capturing to a minimal, as icly it woulnt make much sense if the characters you captured escaped 100% because of the perma death rules.