Temple of Sune - Aquor

[Doubtful]

Doubtful, I never said there wouldn't be creativity or artists there - please be respectful - don't act like I said that; don't stretch what I said.

This baffles me. The implication was that, both traditionally and contemporarily, artistic communities are strongly linked to drugs and other shenanigans. It had nothing to do with the temple at all; no need to get worked up over it.

On to relevant stuff:

The problem here is that you are coming at this from a very character-centric position; fair enough.

You’ve got to think about HOW this temple got built – They don’t just spring up like weeds: they’ve got to have financial backing, lots of financial backing; having the backing of a town of rich nobles is quite handy for getting stuff built.

As for the Thayans, sure, amongst some people they have a fairly bad reputation, and they’re all stern and dowdy – What better target for a spot of lampoonery?

Art, in almost all of its many forms, thrives on contrasts and most of the time has a rather strong anti-establishment line. Are all Sunites inherent cowards? Probably not. Having a couple of exhibitions that gently mock the Thayans would do more to undermine the enclave than simply ignoring its existence ever would.

If the Thayans represent rigid sternness and emotion deadness, it is paramount that groups such as the Sunites are there to oppose them; to ensure the town doesn’t fully succumb to the drab greyness of the Thayans, and is constantly reminded that there is more to life than rules, and that freedom is an option for everyone.

[Maevan2]

I'm not gonna get involved in the discussion of why Aquor may not be a good place for the temple of Sune, but has Sestra been considered? Can I ask why it was decided against? with the temple of liira already there and that other temple devoted to i forget who, it seems like the ideal hippie love-in to me.

Only GBX can asnwer that. but i would guess that the reason is quite simple: there is no free space there. I already had to disposses a farmer to be able to add the temple of Kelemvor and i had to demolish a house to get some place for the temple of Lliira

[Urithrand]

Woah, lots of to-do going on... In all fairness, why would sune care about nearby thayans as long as they're wearing a pleasing shade of red and smoking dope while composing pretty sonnets for each other? (that is SO what those thayans are doing all day...)

[Doubtful]

It's not evil - It's a different shade of love.

[Saulus]

One of the biggest sponsors of the Sunite temple is the nobility. Sestra is not a hotspot for nobility, it is a small village full of working class peasants.

Aquor is where a lot of the nobility spend their time outside of Sundren, that's why the church is there.

[Gamling]

And besides. As far as most, and by most I mean maybe 80 or 85 percent of the populace in Sundren see the Thayans as a neutral force. A bunch of weird foriegn traders that sell magical goods, art-work, and other hoity toity wares. I'm pretty sure they exercise some amount of discretion before they commit eee-vile acts. It's why they have secret rooms in the Enclave seperate from the fancy lobby.

Usually people will read The Unaproachable East and then suddenly their character has gained secretive knowledge of a country that lays half-way across the planet. Thayans might be looked at suspiciously, but I don't think they're on par with the Cartel or Banites in terms of being 'bad-guys'.

[GodBeastX]

Sestra isn't the place for arts happy funtime. As I and Saulus said, nobility funds alot of the church, and Sestra is a bunch of farmers.

I mean, let's look at the temple staff. Two priestesses and a Sun-soul monk. It's not like it's brimming with people like Temple of Helm, Waukeen, etc. It's small, but well funded. Hence the GIANT SOLID GOLD STATUE OF SUNE! *Points at it behind the altar*

If a community wants to enrich their lives and pays for temple support, it only makes sense. Being a priest of anyone but Mask and Waukeen is rarely lucrative, so without sponsors most temples fall flat on their faces.

Let's not forget the cave is a SECRET CAVE, DEEP underground. There's also a large distance between Aquor and the Kurz mountain areas. It's hard to rep that in NWN2.

And Gamling is right, not everyone sees the thayans as Psycho murderers doing Demon expiriments. It's not like the Enclave gives off that aura. I always looked at it more like a Wal-mart. Considering the Red Wizards are supposedly helping to protect Aquor, they're likely building a positive reputation.

[TheBlankStare]

I gotta agree with Gamling and GBX here but I'd say that the percentage of people who think that way is even higher. While Sundren has a relatively large number of adventurers, the Janes and Joes of the land have a far different view of the world than those who live by the sword. Most people just want to be left alone to take care of their families and live a relatively safe life.

In fact, I'd imagine that the average people would be more afraid of all the fighters, barbarians and scary player characters that are allowed to wander unsupervised around the land. I think that the descriptions of a lot of characters bear that out. The Thayan characters, while not necessarily all that personable, are generally well spoken, carry themselves with a modicum of decorum and their wizards don't stand in the middle crowds and let loose with serial casting of magic that the everyday folks have no hope of ever understanding. And let's face it, a lot of characters go way out of their way to look and act scary and intimidating with their toons.

It would seem to me that the nobles probably pushed really hard to have a Sunite temple built in Aquor instead of anywhere else too. Not long ago rumors were circulating that the Thayan Enclave closed its doors to the people of Aquor during an attack by vampires. Having a place to flee to in the event of danger that will actually let people in may have been high on their list of priorities.

The Sunites might have even been the ones to push for its location considering that Aquor is more or less the Hamptons of Sundren. The high ranking members of the Sunite clergy might even be there with the unspoken purpose of keeping an eye on those Thayans too.

Considering the amount of discussion that the appearance and location of Sune's temple has already generated I'd say that it's in the perfect spot to generate a lot of interesting role play.

[Usurper]

Well,the Red Wizards are known throughout all of Faerun..What traveling bards and common folk say about them based on their reputation as it is,is most likely not good things..Though an enclave does not represent evil,neither does the whole of Thay's population..A large majority of their population is Rashemi..

I don't think an enclave in Sundren should be viewed as absolute evil..More like viewed with suspicion,awe,and respect.

[Kaeldorn]

A while back, the Triumvirate was on a propaganda spree against the Thayan operations in Sundren, with Melchior as the head figure and Cybil set up a league for tradespeople who sought protection from the Reds.

As such, it would make sense that many people (not just adventurers, but also commoners, merchants and nobles) have heard some pretty bad rumours about Aquor's enclave from a pretty reliable source.

It's easy to say how things were supposedly intended, but you can hardly ignore 'history'. So it'd be a bit weak to pretend the Aquor inhabitants are all ignorant and happy-happy with their Thayan protectors, no questions asked.

I see the counterweight argument as a good one; Sunites establishing a temple there to poke the Thayans in the ribs. However, both sides would need support in that case. If the Enclave is given full authority over the whole of Aquor (even inside the temple) and the Sunite temple can't get away with anything and automatically get on the bad side of Sundren as a whole when they try, that practically kills any effort. Some sort of support with authority from the outside (such as a loose allegiance with the Triumvirate) would alleviate that for a large part.

[Phantom Lamb]

I think it's important to understand that towns and cities, unless under a strict dictatorship, are rarely one thing and one thing alone. We understand where you're coming from, but there is room for both there.

Additionally, keep in mind that how the general populace sees things is very, very different from how "heroes" see it... let along players. Half-orcs are one example of a view held by adventurers that will never be how the general populace sees them. Thayans are the same way.

[Nwilmen]

Doubtful, you summed up my (well, Priya's) position on Sunite theology perfectly! I'd have to agree it's very likely Sunite clergy might construct temples where they feel they are most needed, particularly Aquor where beauty and art are currently under-represented. Sunites must go where they are most needed, not repeat their presence in a place where those treasures already thrive.

Of course, like some of us mentioned, not all followers of a particular religion practice in same ways. Across the various cultures, regions, and time periods of Faerun, I'm sure the clergy/average followers of have focused on different things or approached them in different ways, depending on the current climate. Much like real world religions, there are sects which are extremist - traditional, defined rules, and intolerant of other ways of practicing the same faith - and sects which are more liberal - open to change and revision of tradition, and more tolerant of other practices/religions.

An extremist Sunite might shun the sight of an evil-aligned temple within a mile of their own place of worship, and only build where they can be surrounded by high art, wealth, and beauty. A more progressive type of Sunite might prefer to seek out places which contain less beauty, less art, and plant the seeds of inspiration there to spread such things where once there was nothing.

Both types of Sunites would make believable characters, and I would find it particularly interesting not only to RP within that perhaps-unusual temple location and the challenges it presents, but also to RP with other Sunite and Good characters who hold a different position. Priya has already had several debates with other good PCs over similar topics, and while I didn't plan this aspect of my character ahead of time, I'm discovering that Priya has acquired a somewhat controversial standpoint towards the nature of sin and evil and what have you. I had no idea!

Conflict is the source of drama, and what fun would our stories be without struggle? Through struggle we get character development, and maybe they'll end up changing in some way, or maybe not. Anything is possible!

[Doubtful]

Why would the Enclave want to crush the Sunites?

I'm sure those of the enclave appreciate art, beauty and flimsy clothes as much as the next living person.

Even in the face of propaganda or rib poking there could be absolutely no benefit what so ever for the enclave in acting against the Sunites - It would simply proove any negative rumours to be true, which isn't something the Thayans would really be out to prove.

It's much more likely that they'd smile, buy art for silly prices and chuckle at the Sunites artistic impotence; probably while saying "Ahaha, children do like to play games, don't they?"

Also, would the Sunite clergy (as in general clergy, not the adventurers who make a living out of killing and fighting things in her name) be that keen on essentially trying to cause inter-country diplomatic incidents? They're there for the people of the town, no matter who they are - Not to cause war.

Edit: Doh! Nwilmen posted while I was typing! and thank you for that

[Kaeldorn]

It's much more likely that they'd smile, buy art for silly prices and chuckle at the Sunites artistic impotence; probably while saying "Ahaha, children do like to play games, don't they?"

Stuck-up as they are, they'd sooner devise all sorts of ways to get back at the Sunites for offending their superiority

Self-control = wisdom, not intellect. And recklessness isn't rare among Red Wizards. At all. They are used to being above the law.

[Nwilmen]

I think my argument for the differing behavior of Sunites could apply for most organizations/faiths around Faerun. There might be Thayans who think it's cute, there might be Thayans who are annoyed, and there might be Thayans who hate them so much, they'd bomb the temple. Just because they're all in the same club doesn't mean they all think exactly the same way.

However, the handful or so of Thayans who hold control of that enclave would probably share a similar, collective opinion on the matter, and would dictate how the rest of their members will conduct themselves (with the exception of one or two crazy/radical Thayans who might be tempted to disobey, for whatever reason). Depending on their short and long term goals, they might evaluate the situation and decide tolerance would benefit the Thayan cause - or not. That's for the DMs to devise.