Next Update - Death Changes

[Phantom Lamb]

Folks, let's not put the cart before the horse. IF there is abuse, we can respond to it. Just report it and we can look into it. Worrying about potential abuse too much, before it even occurs, is just what Fox news wants from us. Let's see how it goes first.

Level 11 PVP deaths should be self-resurrectable without XP loss. I BELIEVE this was fixed in a recent "patch," but it may still be out there.

Level 11 normal deaths are not self-resurrectable without a signus.

[ReverberateEcho]

Reverberate, it really depends on the circumstances. If the hiding of someone's body is an OOC action, "abusing" the system, then this is a punishable offense, and the effectively permed character would be allowed a way out by a DM to right the wrong. If it's an in-character action, it's really not abuse, it makes perfect sense, and it adds a whole new flavour to PvP.

Isn't it sensible to hide the body after you kill someone, after all? The chance that the body will be found is still high when you consider that the corpse will remain there indefinately until the player is ressed by someone. Certain areas might get little traffic, but there's a difference between that and none at all. Someone will find everyone eventually, it will just take time. That's effectively the whole purpose behind making the corpse persistant.

I entirely agree it's sensible to hide a body. So is cutting off their head. Or burning the corpse up. Or mutilating it so only a True Resurrection spell would work (which isn't in this game, strictly speaking), or any other unspeakable and ghastly act that is synonymous with perma-death on most servers.

Which, from what I've read on this server, is explicitly prohibited without the cooperation of the player dying, or the intervention and overseeing of a DM.

My point merely is that I don't think it being a sensible IC action entirely justifies an action, especially when it comes to PvP, as the rules of this server seem to clearly point towards. Again, if I'm misinterpreting the rules I'm referencing, my apologies. But, I read over them again, and it seems I'm accurate in my assessment.

As the difference of them being hidden for awhile as opposed to forever; of course, I agree with that. But, again, I've been told by some people that there are places almost never touched by people. Or, even some other situation, such as a Banite killing someone and hiding them in their own Banite fortress.

Also, are the bodies able to be put in containers? This could create even more places to hide many bodies. Even if it's not a permanent death, as in a full year, having your character effectively pulled out of the picture for months could be extraordinarily discouraging.

Which, (again, correct me if I'm wrong) is something the new PvP system is trying to help curb.

Once again, thank you for the responses and discourse, Uri.

Folks, let's not put the cart before the horse. IF there is abuse, we can respond to it. Just report it and we can look into it. Worrying about potential abuse too much, before it even occurs, is just what Fox news wants from us. Let's see how it goes first.

Level 11 PVP deaths should be self-resurrectable without XP loss. I BELIEVE this was fixed in a recent "patch," but it may still be out there.

Level 11 normal deaths are not self-resurrectable without a signus.

My intention is not to start hysteria, I promise. Simply cordial discussion over a new concept being put into work. Which I will clarify, once again, I think is a great idea. I honestly do hope that is clear.

My original reply was simply that I will hope it's rare that it's abused, and left it at that. However, Uri then expressed that he didn't believe this was even abuse (the very instances I elaborated upon, that is). As such, I thought it was something we could dialogue upon, considering I have a differing view on the matter.

It is not that we are flaming each other or turning to a verbal row, most certainly (I suppose it would technically be a typing row, in theory). He has seemed entirely polite with his manner, thus far, and I certainly hope I have as well.

I hope there's nothing wrong with discussing it further, as long as we remain mature, yes?

[Qinniqtuq Aggaak]

I think though with the ability for the deceased to actually know the location of their body is a good deterrent to the precieved abuse. The deceased player would certainly know where he died, and of course finding that his body is stuffed in a bag of holding in a remote corner of Mossdale would certainly make him pipe up and say "Hey players X & Y killed me, and now I'm here"

It wouldn't be hard for any DM to question players X and Y and deliver a thorough smiting with the naughty stick should they be guilty.

[Urithrand]

It wouldn't be hard for any DM to question players X and Y and deliver a thorough smiting with the naughty stick should they be guilty.

I take it you're referring to the pointy stick of smiting!

[Doubtful]

While, conseivably, there is a small possibility of abuse from some, the benifits far outweigh the risks.

As people have previously mentioned, deaths from CvC/PvP combat are respawnable for only a gold penalty no matter what your level, so no risk of some swine ramming your corpse down a well there.

Now, as those who've read the PvP rules will know, it is not considered polite to initiate combat, or hobble your opponent while they are engaged in combat with NPCs. Personally I will take an extremely dim view on anyone who initiates PvP with AI monsters around, cripples their opponent and then lets AI kill them.

Which only leaves the fairly improbable chance that Character A goes out to kill monsters without taking any friends (never a good idea), and, due to some misfortune, perishes. Character B, who despises Character A, through some unlikely series of events is the next person to turn up, they then take the body and hurl it somewhere where no-one will ever find it.

The solution to that one is, as we've always suggested, don't go grinding all alone.


Also, why dump bodies?
If the dead person you find happens to be your hated enemy, or the enemy of your faction, or an enemy of the state; why not turn the body in to your faction/watch leader, earn some extra faction points and gather some RP out of it?

[BedlamX]

Um...silly question that has probably already been thought of and tested...

What if the body is dumped in the trash? Does it just go away like everything else put in there? If so, could that lead to a non-DM-intiated PK for a higher level (especially if they found the body while the player was off-line and dumped it)? Does the convo tell you who moved and dumped your body after they did it, or just while they have you?

Like Rev...not trying to start some hysteria. But you just know someone, at some time, is gonna try this.

[Phantom Lamb]

I can test this tonight. What's your character name?

Like the pirate with the steering wheel in his pants says, yall are drivin' me nuts! Let's assume that the majority of players won't abuse or step outside RP boundaries for this until we see otherwise

[ReverberateEcho]

While, conseivably, there is a small possibility of abuse from some, the benifits far outweigh the risks.

As people have previously mentioned, deaths from CvC/PvP combat are respawnable for only a gold penalty no matter what your level, so no risk of some swine ramming your corpse down a well there.

Well, if that's the end word on the matter, splendid! I was just making sure, considering the segment of the post I linked, previously. It simply seemed it might have been inferring otherwise. I was mistaken.

Now, as those who've read the PvP rules will know, it is not considered polite to initiate combat, or hobble your opponent while they are engaged in combat with NPCs. Personally I will take an extremely dim view on anyone who initiates PvP with AI monsters around, cripples their opponent and then lets AI kill them.

It wasn't my intention to infer that someone did this. Simply that they shadowed their enemy and waited to see if they'd slip up and die to NPCs. My apologies if I wasn't clear.

Which only leaves the fairly improbable chance that Character A goes out to kill monsters without taking any friends (never a good idea), and, due to some misfortune, perishes. Character B, who despises Character A, through some unlikely series of events is the next person to turn up, they then take the body and hurl it somewhere where no-one will ever find it.

The solution to that one is, as we've always suggested, don't go grinding all alone.

I'm not quite sure I'd call it improbable, considering the tenacity and patience I've seen in some players representing characters that have deep motivations, including the extermination and eradication of their enemies.

I've also seen entire parties wiped out. Even going en masse sometimes is met with more resistance than expecting, or some lag that wasn't expected, or just some unlucky critical that hits the tank (the domino effect taking place shortly after with the rest of the party).

Forgive me, I'm not merely trying to be contradictory for contradiction's sake. I'm simply trying to illustrate it can happen, and if a player is met with such a situation, it's good to know what they can and can not do.

Whatever the case is, once again, my point isn't to disparage the new Death Effects. I don't have any contention against the good outweighing the 'bad.' I believe it a fantastic idea, and have never once proclaimed a denouncement of such. I certainly hope it never seemed as such. I even had the chance to briefly compliment GBX on it in-game, shortly after my first questions went up.

Mostly, I've been trying to see if it's considered abuse or not (the scenarios previously represented, not the new system, to be clear). Because I've heard both it is and it is not in this very thread from staff.

To illustrate, there has recently been put up a great deal of PvP rules (and inflected of previous rules) on the forums so that people recognize what's kosher and what is not. That is honestly what I'm trying to recognize here. There is no deceit or ill will or clandestine motive behind my words, I do promise.

So, may I ask if doing this is considered abuse and an unacceptable PvP tactic?

Once again, I honestly wish to make this abundantly clear that I am not opposing the new facet to the Death System, on any level what-so-ever. I'm glad it's in, and hope to see it kept in.

I'm purely asking for clarification on an ancillary characteristic.

[prismaticcrow]

Firstly, I have to say I love the idea behind the new death system. I really do.

But the issue has to be addressed.

Finding your hated foe's body and stashing it somewhere it could not be found is essentially perma-death, which I was told by the Staff in a thread I started some time ago as: "No player is authorized to perma-kill another without that players consent, or a DM of High rank."

As Bedlam brought up, consider if the body was stashed in a trash barrel, or inside a "remains" bag left by an enemy corpse that should eventually vanish. Without a body, this too effectively perma-kills the character.

As I said before in that other thread, the very last thing I want is to dump months of time, effort, and RP into my character, only to get perma-killed because some player decides he wants to be an asshole and off me. Especially like this, where the player can essentially get away scott-free without anyone being the wiser.

Again, I love this new corpse mechanic. But this is, I think, a serious issue.

[BedlamX]

I can test this tonight. What's your character name?

lol...names are in my sig

Like the pirate with the steering wheel in his pants says, yall are drivin' me nuts! Let's assume that the majority of players won't abuse or step outside RP boundaries for this until we see otherwise

I was mainly going off the earlier post where it was stated that, if hiding a body is IC, then it is encouraged. Same could be said about ditching one in the trash (as long as it was IC). So, based on that post, it would not be an abuse.

[GodBeastX]

Dumping a body in the trash is a waste of time because the player can recreate it. Honestly people, the corpse moving system has been in for a long time and I've seen 0 people have their bodies moved to obscured corners. Even if they were, the Z key is your friend and I added a feature to tell the body owner the location. If people exploit terrain to drop your body, we'll know and they'll likely cry themselves to sleep imagining all the horrors that may be inflicted

[BattlePixie]

good job on the updates, thanks GBX

[Saulus]

Dumping a body in the trash is a waste of time because the player can recreate it. Honestly people, the corpse moving system has been in for a long time and I've seen 0 people have their bodies moved to obscured corners. Even if they were, the Z key is your friend and I added a feature to tell the body owner the location. If people exploit terrain to drop your body, we'll know and they'll likely cry themselves to sleep imagining all the horrors that may be inflicted

Yeah this isn't even an issue I don't know why people seem to think it is.

It's never happend. Since 06'

[BedlamX]

Yeah this isn't even an issue I don't know why people seem to think it is.

It's never happend. Since 06'

Um...cuz we never asked before and weren't around back then? I have no knowledge of scripting, so until I asked, I had no idea it was not a problem.


One thing, though: Even if you know which obscure area your body got moved to, you still have to wait for someone to stumble on it. Any hints from you would be metagaming and get you in trouble, right? So, even though it probably won't be a problem, the questions regarding this are still valid as it has been stated that hiding a body could be completely IC and, thus, encouraged.

[Phantom Lamb]

People can pick up your body right now and drop it in the trash if they want. We haven't had any complaints about it as-is. I don't see that this will be an issue for harassment, but if it is, we'll address it then.

There's no more need to discuss this topic unless we see issues. Thanks folks--