PvP Ettiquette

[GodBeastX]

That's not what he said. He said a lvl 3 killed the lvl 20 wizard. even if the wizard was unbuffed he should've still kill the PC quickly if it's one on one.

Sure, if the lvl 3 had a lvl 10 fighter friend, that *might* be a different story. Might.

Now if Contingency was in NWN2... then... pfft... Knockdown schnockdown, high lvl wizards would be the most powerful class, as they are supposed to be in FR with it's strong Weave.

I'm merely sayin this as an example. (Soulbadguy can back me up). He had a high level vampire whooping on NPCs and I was on my monk. If he wasn't there healing the vampire, I would have beat it no problem. I stopped knocking down though cuz it was kind of cheap. Only takes 2 attacks per round alone, and one attack in a party. He even sends me a tell "Stupic knockdown. "

Now, if a wizard gets first hit then GG, finger of death, wail of banshee, etc. However, if the fighter gets knockdown first, level 6 fighter we'll say, then yeah, good game wizard, sorc, or whatever.

[Ithildur]

I'm merely sayin this as an example. (Soulbadguy can back me up). He had a high level vampire whooping on NPCs and I was on my monk. If he wasn't there healing the vampire, I would have beat it no problem. I stopped knocking down though cuz it was kind of cheap. Only takes 2 attacks per round alone, and one attack in a party. He even sends me a tell "Stupic knockdown. "

Now, if a wizard gets first hit then GG, finger of death, wail of banshee, etc. However, if the fighter gets knockdown first, level 6 fighter we'll say, then yeah, good game wizard, sorc, or whatever.

Hehe, these topics are always kinda fun as long as it doesn't get outta hand...

I just need a decent lvl 11 wizard with most of his spells; if the lvl 6 fighter rolls low on the KD and I get ONE spell off... it won't be fod or wail... but the fight will be over at that point.

Now that'll make you think that maybe KD isn't such a bad option...

[Ithildin]

noones saying knockdown is a bad option just that its coded so it can be abused easily

[GodBeastX]

Hehe, these topics are always kinda fun as long as it doesn't get outta hand...

I just need a decent lvl 11 wizard with most of his spells; if the lvl 6 fighter rolls low on the KD and I get ONE spell off... it won't be fod or wail... but the fight will be over at that point.

Now that'll make you think that maybe KD isn't such a bad option...

It really shouldn't go down that way though. And that's just a fighter. Alot of people are hardly ever "Just fighters". Think of weapon masters. Hmmm, I crit once or twice and kill a wizard? That could happen in one round with knockdown XD

[Ithildur]

It really shouldn't go down that way though. And that's just a fighter. Alot of people are hardly ever "Just fighters". Think of weapon masters. Hmmm, I crit once or twice and kill a wizard? That could happen in one round with knockdown XD

WM crit will kill most wizards fast... no arguement there. I've seen 160 to 200 dmg per hit done by them with scythes... and they can do it much more often than insta death spells can be cast; imagine 3 or 4 attacks per round. I donno... to me now THAT seems cheesy.

the more I think about it, I think I see both sides. On the other thread I'm seeing how KD is busted vs concealment and fireshield, etc, but here, I'm also arguing that a wizard can easily handle lower lvl fighters with KD, and higher lvl ones too if they're buffed. The thing is the wizard doesn't have to let the fighter walk up to him to obliterrate him.

[Garfaldo]

The funny thing is magic classes are usually always at a disadvantage in PvP because by the time your RP the encounter out leading to the violence, your buffs have failed. So their only hope is some insta death spell, or stun. Too bad sanctuary doesn't work against PCs

[GodBeastX]

WM crit will kill most wizards fast... no arguement there. I've seen 160 to 200 dmg per hit done by them with scythes... and they can do it much more often than insta death spells can be cast; imagine 3 or 4 attacks per round. I donno... to me now THAT seems cheesy.

the more I think about it, I think I see both sides. On the other thread I'm seeing how KD is busted vs concealment and fireshield, etc, but here, I'm also arguing that a wizard can easily handle lower lvl fighters with KD, and higher lvl ones too if they're buffed. The thing is the wizard doesn't have to let the fighter walk up to him to obliterrate him.

Then you have to consider that the DC's Wizards can get on spells were SUPREMELY nerfed between NWN1 and NWN2. For example, my necromancer in NWN1 had about 36 Int (On a low magic setting too, I just collected +int gear). With the +'s and such, the DC to survive a finger of death was around 33 or 34. It was high. Some people could save, but some couldn't.

Take off the stacking intellect, most normal races max out at around 29 Int on this server at level 20 (18 +5 +6(items)) then the nerf to how much of a DC the Spell Focus Gives. Etc. You wind up with 20's for DC saves against spells instead of 30's. A high level fighter of any type can save against a fort spell pretty easy.

then you say a buffed wizard. Well, what does it take for a wizard to buff? He has to know impending doom is upon him.

So if a wizard and a fighter are arguing, the fighter emotes "*Gets angry and rushes at the wizard*" Now the wizard begins to cast, I'm pretty sure the fighter will get first action. If the fighter is dishing out enough damage, he'll win on first round easy. Same level as wizard.

Now, if a wizard KNOWS he has a fighter coming at him, buffs for 30 seconds and gets the jump on the fighter, then the wizard might win. It's still a might though, because fighters can still have methods of combating magic even if they don't get the opener.

[Ithildur]

Then you have to consider that the DC's Wizards can get on spells were SUPREMELY nerfed between NWN1 and NWN2. For example, my necromancer in NWN1 had about 36 Int (On a low magic setting too, I just collected +int gear). With the +'s and such, the DC to survive a finger of death was around 33 or 34. It was high. Some people could save, but some couldn't.

Take off the stacking intellect, most normal races max out at around 29 Int on this server at level 20 (18 +5 +6(items)) then the nerf to how much of a DC the Spell Focus Gives. Etc. You wind up with 20's for DC saves against spells instead of 30's. A high level fighter of any type can save against a fort spell pretty easy.

then you say a buffed wizard. Well, what does it take for a wizard to buff? He has to know impending doom is upon him.

So if a wizard and a fighter are arguing, the fighter emotes "*Gets angry and rushes at the wizard*" Now the wizard begins to cast, I'm pretty sure the fighter will get first action. If the fighter is dishing out enough damage, he'll win on first round easy. Same level as wizard.

Now, if a wizard KNOWS he has a fighter coming at him, buffs for 30 seconds and gets the jump on the fighter, then the wizard might win. It's still a might though, because fighters can still have methods of combating magic even if they don't get the opener.

I'm not going to give away all my 'secrets' on how to deal with those situations here. Actually most of them aren't that obscure; I'm sure people can figure them out.

But *cough* erm, actually, you're right... so... let's put Timestop and contingency back in the game for wizzies. Please? :P

Not that Corwyn will ever see lvl 9 spells as a melee oriented gish... he won't live long enough to get to epic lvls.

[Zoberraz]

This returns to the balancing issues of classes whom have all their abilities available instantly such as fighters - whom are as powerful as the sum of their talent and abilities indicate - and the spellcasters whom gain enormous power as they level up, provided they have the foresight to choose thier abilities well and prepare for battle.

However, I wholly disagree with GodBeastX's view that taking buffs into account and waiting strategically for a time to strike or somesuch is to be frowned upon. Plenty of those assisting spells have visual effects; from Shield and Mage armor's field of force to the different skin texture/appearance offered by barkskin and stoneskin.

Take for example Maia's scuffle with Ohgmek in the Viridale. Maia's temper flared and she attacked him obviously at a moment that was improper for him. He quickly popped up a stoneskin and tried to bring up a Bull Strength spell too before starting to wack away at her with his spear... but in the meantime, Maia had nearly ground his stoneskin away. Add a Potion of Cure Serious Wounds and she quickly got the upper hand, finally defeating Ohgmek.

However, when he was raised and came running back in her direction with what looked like a bubble of force, some spinning shining stuff, a flaming spear and a rocky-looking skin... Maia wasn't going to just stand there and let him come to her - he was obviously prepared and out for vengeance... so, she ran away.

Ohgmek had been difficult enough to beat the first time around - she didn't care for a rematch... not with things not in favor.

And that's really the crux of things. In a world where the warriors come short to powerful spellcasters - especially the hybrid kind like druids and clerics - things have to be done to make it so that one will win. Everyone wants to survive and win, after all. Maia, not being the honorable knight type and more something of a guerilla fighter will pick what advantages she can get.

If this means shadowing someone and attacking him when he gets hurt, waiting for spells to be exhausted, waiting for magical protections to lapse, plinking arrows from afar to soften the other up and then just move out of sight to have him worry, use up resources, interupt rest sessions...

Maia is not fair. She'll do them all. She's an elf - not all elves are the confident paladin/melee gish whom trust in his magic and swordsmanship to win the day.

The fallen and bleeding to death issue is something I'm less comfortable with. Maia, in melee, has many attacks and sometimes when the opponent falls I just don't have the time to disengage before she goes through with them. If the opponent is bleeding to death, I generally try to restore them with a healing kit and see where that goes from there.

On the other hand, I don't believe someone actually loses xp from respawning from a PvP death - so people don't actually need to act considerate and use raise scrolls in PvP.

Anyhow...

Anyone whom fights Maia has had obvious hints that a fight could occur. Isiovien, Nocte, Ohgmek namely. All of them were involved in a situation with her were they could see a fight coming and that there was an obvious "Back off or else" message. I don't trap or force anyone in PvP combat without good cause... though some situation might arise from situations which occured before and built up to a breaking point.

Elves live long. If you slight them, insult them, they will remember and will take time working out retribution.

Elves and Fey moved to see the necessity of cruelty can be extremely dangerous.

[Ethereal Edge]

It's actually sort of unfair to wait for a buffed wizard's mantle to... well, dismantle. Why? Because it takes longer to type a heated conversation than to talk it, I find.

[Ichbin]

This is why you just jump ppl, in the darkness, with no reason....what!? its effective! That way it doesnt matter WHAT class you are!

[GodBeastX]

This returns to the balancing issues of classes whom have all their abilities available instantly such as fighters - whom are as powerful as the sum of their talent and abilities indicate - and the spellcasters whom gain enormous power as they level up, provided they have the foresight to choose thier abilities well and prepare for battle.

However, I wholly disagree with GodBeastX's view that taking buffs into account and waiting strategically for a time to strike or somesuch is to be frowned upon. Plenty of those assisting spells have visual effects; from Shield and Mage armor's field of force to the different skin texture/appearance offered by barkskin and stoneskin.

Take for example Maia's scuffle with Ohgmek in the Viridale. Maia's temper flared and she attacked him obviously at a moment that was improper for him. He quickly popped up a stoneskin and tried to bring up a Bull Strength spell too before starting to wack away at her with his spear... but in the meantime, Maia had nearly ground his stoneskin away. Add a Potion of Cure Serious Wounds and she quickly got the upper hand, finally defeating Ohgmek.

However, when he was raised and came running back in her direction with what looked like a bubble of force, some spinning shining stuff, a flaming spear and a rocky-looking skin... Maia wasn't going to just stand there and let him come to her - he was obviously prepared and out for vengeance... so, she ran away.

Ohgmek had been difficult enough to beat the first time around - she didn't care for a rematch... not with things not in favor.

And that's really the crux of things. In a world where the warriors come short to powerful spellcasters - especially the hybrid kind like druids and clerics - things have to be done to make it so that one will win. Everyone wants to survive and win, after all. Maia, not being the honorable knight type and more something of a guerilla fighter will pick what advantages she can get.

If this means shadowing someone and attacking him when he gets hurt, waiting for spells to be exhausted, waiting for magical protections to lapse, plinking arrows from afar to soften the other up and then just move out of sight to have him worry, use up resources, interupt rest sessions...

Maia is not fair. She'll do them all. She's an elf - not all elves are the confident paladin/melee gish whom trust in his magic and swordsmanship to win the day.

The fallen and bleeding to death issue is something I'm less comfortable with. Maia, in melee, has many attacks and sometimes when the opponent falls I just don't have the time to disengage before she goes through with them. If the opponent is bleeding to death, I generally try to restore them with a healing kit and see where that goes from there.

On the other hand, I don't believe someone actually loses xp from respawning from a PvP death - so people don't actually need to act considerate and use raise scrolls in PvP.

Anyhow...

Anyone whom fights Maia has had obvious hints that a fight could occur. Isiovien, Nocte, Ohgmek namely. All of them were involved in a situation with her were they could see a fight coming and that there was an obvious "Back off or else" message. I don't trap or force anyone in PvP combat without good cause... though some situation might arise from situations which occured before and built up to a breaking point.

Elves live long. If you slight them, insult them, they will remember and will take time working out retribution.

Elves and Fey moved to see the necessity of cruelty can be extremely dangerous.

I meant the non-visuals. Str buffs, etc. People do this alot. Obviously only a wierdo would run up on someone who's baptized in flame and shadow striking him and taking damage "ARGH ARGH! I SAW THE FIRE BUT I PUT MY HAND IN ANYWAY!"

I meant things that aren't visual, waiting for the icon over their head to popup to show you it's gone.

[Ithildur]

Another potentially tricky topic; a lot of the visuals in NWN2 for spells, abilities, effects, etc are either not visible in PnP (for example shield is an invisible disk in PnP), or lack descriptions indicating if a 'field' around someone is visible or not (protection from evil, which in NWN2 is the most obtrustive visual effect without the useful override that tones these visuals down), as opposed to spells like fire/elemental shield which specificly describes visible effects...

[GodBeastX]

Wellllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llllllll...

Some VFX's I can script out... if people really want it...

[Grigori]

I actually like that idea for Roleplay in general... Some spells simply don't need visuals to be effective... That would make the visual spells all that much more "Wowable"...