Knockdown?

[Mikara]

Is there any way to defend against this?

My evil cleric walked near the mage tower with a ressurected bandit as a shadow, openly flaunting her necromancy. Corwin was there and threatened me unless I released the creature. Refusing and insulting him, he attacked.

All good RP, and I expected to die seeing as he rated Impossible to me, but the problem was the way it happened. I hoped to at least get a curse or something off on him, but it was Knockdown *hit* 7 or 8 times in a row till I was dead. Never even got a single spell or attack off or chance to run.

This ability seems not to be effected by armor class or concealment (I was displaced), it just automatically hits. I have some first level cleric spell called foundation of stone (I guess from my earth domain as it says druid only) that resists knockdown, but it seems to be bugged as I cannot memorize it. Of course in this case I never would have had a chance to cast it anyway.

Just wonder if there is anything I can do here or will my career as an evil opponent to all heroes of goodness mean being knocked around like a gnome pinball machine to everyone's comic relief.

Bruised and battered,

Jandi Shar~Tsura

[Rannarix]

I've seen a hundred other similar threads on other server forums like this, so hopefully I can post the general outocme before people start potentially flaming.

Each class has it's advantages.

If a mage gets the jump on a fighter or rogue, he can use bigbies or a death spell.
If a rogue gets the jump on a fighter or mage, he can use sneak attacks to his heart's content.
If a fighter gets the jump on a mage or rogue, he can use knockdown.

Your only defense against knockdown is having a high dex or str. Fighters need it to defend against mages, so it's there for balancing reaons.

This isn't a flame, I just hoped I could waylay potential arguement.

[thorandike]

Sorry for showing my ignorance here, but I don't study the technical aspects of the game. I rarely go PvP so I have nothing to say about that.

What you're saying is there is no counter-balance to Knockdown? In NWN1 you rolled a Disapline check if I remember correctly. There should be some sort of defense I would think... Can you just avoid getting hit with high Dex/evasion?

[Anauroch]

This isn't a flame, I just hoped I could waylay potential arguement.

Not while I am browsing the forum, Rannarix...

I'll keep it short though (and it's just my most humble opinion):
Knockdown would be fine, if:

• it were comparable to trip as per PnP D&D, meaning: attacker has to succeed on a touch attack first + the person on the ground would have some chance of doing 'something' (there are A LOT of options in PnP D&D as opposed to just being at the other's mercy in NWN2)
• people were not to to use it the whole time. Using knockdown here and there, fine. Using it over and over (aka spamming it) is just bothersome.

Knockdown as a balancing tool? Well, it fails imo. Knockdown is the weapon if you are a strong fighter - you win if you are good at it, and you have no chance (in those conflicts Rannarix mentioned) if you do not have it or are just plain bad at it.

I don't like how it is implemented at all - although this won't hamper my gaming experience much at all. I've yet to experience a real PvP incident in my 3-4 months of online gaming time.

Edit: No, there is no defense whatsoever. It's a Str check modified by size (not 100% sure on this) vs. a Dex or Str check by the defender (whatever is higher). So you can see why RDDs are so well-liked.

[Cheatcake]

Basically, they tried to make Knockdown closer to how Trip works on PnP, but instead made it even more cheated than it was on NWN1 It doesn't causes damage anymore, but it seems to ignore all the details that would help you resist it, like you having to be unnarmed or with a few weapons like a whip to attempt it, like you being able to use your move action to get up right after being tripped, etc

[Ralek]

The defense against knockdown is a roll of str/dex (whichever is the highest) against the attacker's roll. It is modified by size, meaning that for each size in difference there's a +/- of 4. Ie, if you're small and being knocked down by a medium opponent, you have -4 to the roll. Improved knockdown makes you knockdown as one size category larger.

[Dark presence]

Knockdown is horribly implemented in NWN 1 and 2. The biggest reason for this is the fact that it prevents the prone person from doing ANYTHING. There is absolutely nothing in the PHB that says a prone or knocked down person cannot cast spells. The only thing that prone signifies is a +4 attack roll to everyone attacking you in melee. But casters should still be able to cast while prone, which is something NWN fails miserably at.
Knockdown simply IS overpowered for that reason. Now there is a defense against it in NWN 2, and its opposed strength rolls. So it really is less likely to succeed all the time compared to NWN 1, and that is the PNP rules anyways, but restricting prone people from doing ANYTHING is just absolutely wrong.

[Ithildur]

This is an old debate, probably one of the oldest ones since NWN1 came out. Meleers get KD, clerics get Harm, wizards get bigsby's, rogues get HIPS, etc etc that seems to be like one or two abilities/spells for each class that seems to be extremely powerful (but certainly counterable) and everyone complains about when someone else does it. None of these are implemented per PnP and tend to be more powerful than they are in PnP; heck, harm doesn't even require a touch attack and gets no save, which the ingame description for the spell seems to indicate is a bug.

To be honest I was surprised at how effective it was; I was NOT hitting it on every attack, but alternating kd with a normal attack or two (otherwise it'd be silly, I'd have done no damage at all as KD doesn't do any damage) keep in mind I have two attacks per round... however, I realized something afterwards.

It's a strength check, opposed by a strength check, 1d20 + str bonus vs 1d20 +str bonus unless your DEX is higher, then you use DEX bonus to counter... however, the advantage i realized afterwards is that you are a size smaller than my PC, which gives a +4 bonus... that probably was why it was so successful, plus I was getting some very good rolls... and apparently you weren't. With two creatures of the same approximate size and str, it's a 50/50, it might knock the other person down, or it might be a wasted attack. Usually when I try to KD anything bigger/stronger than goblins it's about that, 50/50 at best.

Again, there are counters to it, just like there are counters to bigsby's, harm, and even HIPS... none of them are foolproof, which is as it should be.

[Cheatcake]

And that's exactly why it's so cheated, Ralek A roll of a stat against a full attack roll? C'mon! It should be a touch attack to even try it, and then opposed rolls of Str (attacked) vs Str or Dex (defender, whichever is higher).

See where the huge problem is?

[Anauroch]

(Look how you stopped the discussion, Rannarix! But at least it's a solid one so far.)

Um... it is an opposed roll like ithildur said and I think like Ralek meant.

Now... if you have a strong fighter with improved knockdown and a few levels of RDD, then it quickly gets out of hand. Not to mention the poor, small-sized characters.

Even if one were to assume that on average the Str score of a knockdown-type fighter is the same as the Dex score of the 'to-be-knocked-down', the +4 from improved knockdown already improves the odds in such a way that success is 70% likely.

Now... not everyone has a high Dex or Str score to defend against this. It's just... ah, I won't repeat myself.

Edit: http://www.nwn2wiki.org/Knockdown

[Ithildur]

And that's exactly why it's so cheated, Ralek A roll of a stat against a full attack roll? C'mon! It should be a touch attack to even try it, and then opposed rolls of Str (attacked) vs Str or Dex (defender, whichever is higher).

See where the huge problem is?

No, that is incorrect. Reread the description please.

[Anauroch]

Just read the link I posted above myself... and I must say it is even more broken than I thought.

/repeating myself

[Cheatcake]

Are you sure the opposed rolls are right? I've seen people consistently knocking down things way over their strength. Too consistently for it to be just luck, or so I thought

But even if they got one of the rolls right, they still lack the other one and the restriction on being unnarmed to do it

No, that is incorrect. Reread the description please.

The description? Like the one for the long-range feats that seem to be wrong Or the spells that say they do something but do something else?

[Ralek]

And that's exactly why it's so cheated, Ralek A roll of a stat against a full attack roll? C'mon! It should be a touch attack to even try it, and then opposed rolls of Str (attacked) vs Str or Dex (defender, whichever is higher).

See where the huge problem is?

Yah, I got it wrong. It's opposed str checks, meant to write that

Also, I expression no opinion whatsoever whether it's cheesy or not.

Don't shoot the messenger, man

[Ithildur]

I will say one thing; I do not complain if a cleric kills me with the broken harm spell, or if a wizard gets me with a no save bigsby's, or if a fighter knocks me down, or if a rogue vanishes in from of my eyes and reappears to sneak attack me. That's the way the game works, and I've chosen to accept that's the way it works and if it happens to me, I'll suck it up and take it unless someone comes up with a rework of all such abilities/spells that are not like PnP.

If it's bad enough that a PW decides to balance it out, that's fine, if they also balance out all the other unbalanced abilities and attacks. If Sundren staff want to start opening that can of worms, well... god help them.