Server Plots: Difficulty

[Azulfae]

I haven't seen any +6 mighty composite longbows around. Is +3 mighty the maximum?

[Zoberraz]

The best Maia's found is +3 Mighty, though I know there are Shederran planks out there.

* * *

@Phantom Lamb:

Lag at Sestra events is definitely the one thing that has me avoiding what otherwise looks like fun, pivotal events. Every strike against the scalyfolk I've seen involved considerable troop mobilization, so that didn't help - even if it made sense.

The impression of ineffectualness regarding combat encounters there is another thing that personally troubles me. Maia is a level 15 archer with Yuan-Ti as favored enemies, and yet in the damage log she doesn't seem to amount to very much. Either it's high AC making 1 shot out of 4 hit or damage reduction lowering the damage each arrow does.

[Phantom Lamb]

Please stay on topic. Rambling threads will get locked if they ramble too far--they don't have value for the community if we can't stay on-topic. Thanks--

[Product of Void]

I thought +3 was the maximum for everything? atleast I hope so, even if rp rewards. keeps it balanced.

If you built a charactor that isn't a tank don't be uspet if you can't tank. Restarting a charactor is totally possible.

One intresting thing in DnD or NWN is even if a charactor is level 30 they can still be utterly worthless in combat, yet stellar in rp. Accepting qwirks or weakness adds alot to a charactor, which can be fun or tedious for the player.

Another thing folks aren't figuring is this.

1. Some battles you might loose
2. Running away is ALWAYS an option
3. Battling to the death is a good way to END a charactor
4. NPc's are handy (fighting besides, taking damage, out running so dragons eat them).
5. A charactor is not less then any other if they stick to healing others or NPc's.

With a charactor a thing I try to figure out is its strengths and its weakness's so I know what I can do and what to avoid. Even if you build an UBER tank chances are for damage and attack ability you loose on saves and armor. Its very hard to balance it all.

my half cent.

[Xeesheava]

Summarizing:

The lag it's an almost unavoidable matter, counting the people on the event plus DM, there is another people outside the event doing their own things, wich loads more processes to the module.
I have two ideas for reducing lag and crashes:

1. The Unpractical: The day of the event, previously anounced, the server will be locked with password and all the characters booted, then, the players involved in the event + 1 DM will be the ones with the password.

2. The Massive Spawn Token: Let's see, the enemy army have 3 types of enemies: Archers, Tankers and Arcanes.

The average HP of the archers are d10, the tankers are d12 and the Arcanes are d4. Now, maybe the level of this characters are 10. So, the archers will have 10d10 of HP, The Tankers will have 10d12, and the Arcanes will have 10d4. Finally, the army have 10 units of each category.

Individual HP:
> Enemy Archer: 100 HP [10d10]
> Enemy Tanker: 120 HP [10d12]
> Enemy Arcane: 40 HP [10d4]

Now, it's time to the the trick, building a most representative NPC holding the power of the army itself, using the average AB and AC.

Overall HP:
> Enemy Archer Token:
1000 HP [10d10 *10]
+15 AB / +10 AB / +5 AB
25 AC

> Enemy Tanker Token:
1200 HP [10d12 *10]
+ 15 AB / +10 AB / +5 AB
30 AC

> Enemy Arcane Token:
400 HP [10d4 *10]
+ 14 / +7
18 AC

This way, all characters can contribute because Rogues can flank and score Sneak Attacks, the archers can start an archery duel to the archers token, and so...

My 2 cents.

[Lanemeyer]

Mmm, it seems a good idea to me, Xeesh.

[Kaeldorn]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0644.html


While it might work... it doesn't really go with the spirit of D&D. It also takes away tactics, and would need a lot of different premade clones of enemies for various encounter sizes. Lastly, it doesn't take into account the loss of enemy damage when their hp (and so 'numbers') are lost.

[Xeesheava]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0644.html


While it might work... it doesn't really go with the spirit of D&D. It also takes away tactics, and would need a lot of different premade clones of enemies for various encounter sizes. Lastly, it doesn't take into account the loss of enemy damage when their hp (and so 'numbers') are lost.

Oooh, another option: deploy friendly factioned enemy units [all blue] and ask for initiative rolls. And manage the fight only with dices and declared actions. Obviously it's boring for the non-hardcore roleplayers and bashers, and it's slow, but reduces the lag.

[Verrath]

I did that on another server AGES ago, and it was actually quite cool. Each NPC represented a squad of enemies, and we played the game Risk-Style. Good fun.

*edit* for those who don't know what Risk is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_(game) *end edit*

[Redjack]

Summarizing:

The lag it's an almost unavoidable matter, counting the people on the event plus DM, there is another people outside the event doing their own things, wich loads more processes to the module.
I have two ideas for reducing lag and crashes:

1. The Unpractical: The day of the event, previously anounced, the server will be locked with password and all the characters booted, then, the players involved in the event + 1 DM will be the ones with the password.

2. The Massive Spawn Token: Let's see, the enemy army have 3 types of enemies: Archers, Tankers and Arcanes.

The average HP of the archers are d10, the tankers are d12 and the Arcanes are d4. Now, maybe the level of this characters are 10. So, the archers will have 10d10 of HP, The Tankers will have 10d12, and the Arcanes will have 10d4. Finally, the army have 10 units of each category.

Individual HP:
> Enemy Archer: 100 HP [10d10]
> Enemy Tanker: 120 HP [10d12]
> Enemy Arcane: 40 HP [10d4]

Now, it's time to the the trick, building a most representative NPC holding the power of the army itself, using the average AB and AC.

Overall HP:
> Enemy Archer Token:
1000 HP [10d10 *10]
+15 AB / +10 AB / +5 AB
25 AC

> Enemy Tanker Token:
1200 HP [10d12 *10]
+ 15 AB / +10 AB / +5 AB
30 AC

> Enemy Arcane Token:
400 HP [10d4 *10]
+ 14 / +7
18 AC


My 2 cents.

I want to congradulate Xeesheava on the sheer amount of numbers/math/thought in her post!

[Lanemeyer]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0644.html


While it might work... it doesn't really go with the spirit of D&D. It also takes away tactics, and would need a lot of different premade clones of enemies for various encounter sizes. Lastly, it doesn't take into account the loss of enemy damage when their hp (and so 'numbers') are lost.

What if we put less but stronger folks to fight? I mean, istead putting only one that represents an intire army, maybe 4 not so lethal, but still hard to take down.

[Kaeldorn]

That kind of ruins the point, as 4 or so is already a 'normal-sized' group to fight.

It'd be easier to simply change enemy stats to have lower AC but higher HP.

Say we have, for example, a powerful fighter (A) with 25 AB and an average of 20 damage per hit, and a not so powerful one (B) with 20 AB and an average of 18 damage per hit. A random enemy as it is now has 41 AC and 150 hp.

This means A will hit on a 16-20, whilst B will only ever hit on a 20. If we ignore criticals (they don't have so much of an impact), A will deliver an average of 5 damage per attack, B will only do 0.9. This means that of two characters of the same level, one can dish out over five times as much damage on the same enemy even if both are fighters. And all that because of 'optimisation'. The monster will take about 25 attacks of each to go down.

Now if we remove 6 of this monster's AC (for a new total of 35) and give him 375 hp instead, it has the following effect:
A will hit on a 10-20, B will hit on a 16-20. Damage averages are 11 per attack and 4.5 per attack. B's damage contribution for this party of two just jumped from 15% to 30%. More importantly, B will feel like is actually making a difference with five times as many of his attacks hitting. And the monster will still take about 25 attacks of each to go down.

People 5 or more levels under the ECL still might not be able to contribute much, but this makes it far more fair for even levels. To accomodate damage spells, monsters can be given magic damage vulnerabilities.

Of course I'm not saying all enemies need to have similar AC and HP levels. Some differences keep it interesting as that asks for a change of strategy. However, right now the norm is enemies with borderline ridiculous AC, which is highly favoring munchkin warriors. The norm should be enemies that do not make the influence of less uber people insignificant.


When it comes to running events with vast level differences, I feel the option to spawn mostly lower enemies and a few tougher ones is the best way to go. Yes, there is the lag issue in massive fights, but to be frank I tend to like adventures with parties of 3-4 characters a lot more than events that try to cather to the entire server at once. It makes things easier to manage for the DM and gives everyone involved a chance to shine in conversation/RP as well as actions between fights, rather than having 2-3 people trying to take the spotlights while the rest is overshadowed by their constant spam of the chat.

[Product of Void]

hmm funny how everyone focuses on PHYSICAL attacks there are other means to harm an opponent.

Curse song is rather nasty.
Taunt will decrease AC.


There is also alot of spells that have no save that affect things as well. are there no high level casters?

[Kaeldorn]

While valid, the points you're bringing to the table are irrelevant to this topic, PoV. It's pretty clear that this post is mostly about being unable to hit high level enemies, which is mostly a problem for warriors and rogueish archetypes. Spellcasters tend to have buffs and 'save for half' damage spells that are still useful if cast by lower level characters. If all enemies had spell resistance, then they would be in trouble too.

[Product of Void]

Wasn't trying to be irrelevant, maybe I intrupted the topic wrong. It seemed folks were upset at being able to melee with monsters in big quest. I was just trying to show another angle, of how you can be useful or what can be done to monsters.

While rogues tend to be poor at melee they are great if with someone else to draw the attack, or can fall back on using their UMD for other objects.

Warriors typically get little more choice then charge or use feat/class abilities.

One thing with buffs like some foks ponder their low level charactor being little use in melee their buffs can be EXTREMELY useful for the high level melees.

Just trying to help folks find their nich in combat or options for what they can do at any level.