Server Plots: Difficulty

[Azulfae]

I've thought on this for many weeks and didn't say anything until now because I didn't want what I say taken as criticism of the server and what you guys are doing.

I can see how much work is going into DMing and creating these server shifting events and I only wish i could have been part of them.

I know the sestra plot is supposed to be coming to it's ending in the near future and so I guess this is a good time to say something before the next server plot begins.

I understand that after about level 15, there really isn't any way to gain XP other than DM interaction and therefore people who have characters of those levels really need to gain a firm place in such events as server plots.

My only criticism is that the server plots, like the one in sestra with the lizards is full of opponents and monsters that are utterly balanced for 'that level range'.

I have tried to get involved by being present at server plot events and all that happens is I see dozens of dead bodies for the level 5-10 PCs and the higher level PC's carving their way onwards.

Myself I have churned thousands of golds worth of expenses into just being present twice for a battle against the lizards and earned XP amounting to what I might get for soloing a single gnoll. There is nothing much to pick up in loot or rewards from the lizards apart from maybe a couple of low level scrolls or a +1 healing kit.

Because I can't touch the lizards and have no effect on the events. I go basically unnoticed and have no input to the plot.

What am I suggesting?

Maybe so that lower levels can at least get involved and feel they can play a role more in server plots and the areas involved, drop the monster difficulty down a little. It would have been nice maybe if the level 5-10's could have partied up and gone to sestra to fight some lizard men balanced more to their level and perhaps one or two Yuan-ti that sprung up to lead them.

Of course if a trio of level 15's go there have the spawn triggers dump a gang of 7-10 yuan-ti and Naga and whatever else you like.

When there are battles, consider the lower levels who are turning up to be a part of it, don't just let them get churned up during the lag and eaten alive by these high level spawns magic and lethal damage. Remember that the average level 7 player doesn't have tonnes of elemental resistance or 30+ AC and can't hit through -10/DR over uber magical adamaintine weapons.

Perhaps it's possible to have a front on the battle where there is spawns for the lower levels to handle and then something harder coming from a different angle that requires the higher levels to manage. If the level gap is there then pull the levels into groups, even ask them to get into two separate parties to OOC define this for us before things kick off.

The lower levels will happily back off from the harder stuff if there is that definition there and then something a little more managable to keep us occupied when it's our turn.

I know our higher level players are also mature enough to judge when to step back and let the low levels take care and do their bit. I know i have been a higher level PC on other servers and loved it when the challange was below my level, I could step back behind the rest and bark commands directing people what to take on and jump in to use healing kits on those who were loosing their fights.

Of course, the DM's can then surprise the higher level player by bringing in something nasty and going for you specifically with it. The best part then is that your allies jump back in horror and watch you carve it up. In the aftermath the praise always rolls in and makes you enjoy the moment even more.

I can ramble on but i think the point is made. Don't get me wrong though, it's not about changing the difficulty of things to balance for a lower level it's just about creating a variation in balances, so there is something for everyone.

I hope this doesn't come across wrong. I, like many others, really appreciate the creativity that goes into these events, but like I said before, I just wish I could have been a part in them.

[Zoberraz]

I'll join in and admit that I've had Maia avoid battles against Yuan-Ti, despite she having them as favored enemies and being in the level 15+ tier, simply because she doesn't seem to do any damage to them, or does piddly damage in the exception cases when she:

- Does enough damage over their DR (bow attacks).
- Hits their AC (bow attacks).
- Does not get killed by a Missile Storm spell.

Not to mention that most of the Sestra-related quests involve a whole lot of NPCs and big character groups... which imply considerable lag. While I'd love to get involved, with the above... the Yuan-Ti-related events end up being more tedious to participate in (and I got weary of subjecting myself to that).

The Sestra situation, though, has tons of good ideas! It's just... *looks at the above* well, you get it.

[Thief Of Navarre]

Yeah I share that sentiment!

While Pel can just about touch HLM's with his bow attacks, most of the time I spent dealing out healing kits (cause my heal skill is pretty sweet) and I end up spending about 2200 gold on heal kits just to keep the 15+ party up and running for little RP reward or recognition..

The last time I got recognition for my healing/input/RP was with Falmari (my druid) when there was the Fey forest quest for the 'Tears of the Sun' for Cirion and Peridan..

Its well enough for high level characters who are getting XP and recognition for their high levels, but all of us who at least show our weaknesses(cause at level 7-14 we have many) in our characters it tends to be fruitless and far more expensive

[Product of Void]

Dm events require DMS.

The more dms and the more happy they are the more events.

Encouraging the dms, and getting more folks to dm will increase the amount of events which will increase the amount folks get to be involved.

I have been in a few dm events with high levels they let me tag along Rarely I was any use (except boosting everyones skills by 2).

Also alot of Dm events I have seen do not involve combat as much as being smart or skilled. Thinking things through or using skill rolls.

If folks are having trouble getting involved perhaps dms/staff could give a few examples of what has been effective.

I think atleast 3-4 times in dm events I have had my charactor perish in the dm event but dm gives a raise so who cares. So get involved

[Thief Of Navarre]

Getting wiped about by 'DC60 Negative Energy' trap or by a lucky 200 hundred odd crit isnt really fair to the low levels even if they get raised because it inspires no incentive to level higher!

I think the community as a whole is too wound up on level capped players who can 'afford' the roleplaying most of the DM events encompass that mid level players get left out of the midst. Mach's low level events are the saving grace for low levels PCs, but what do 8-10'ish levels have for entertainment?

[Product of Void]

dc60 even at level 15 is impossible and a crit of 200 will wipe out most level 15 charactors too.

at level 20 you get a base save of 12 even if you start with a stat of 20 put all your increases into it, use a spell boost an a spell to boost saves +6. you can't make 60.

12 (base)+8(stat)+6(spell)+3(spell craft) +3 (item) = 32

While having mid level events is cool, we could give ideas of events instead of

"HEY we are level X entertian us". That is not real inspiring to dms.

Sestra for the most part would be assumed to be a combat event. Though you can be more support then offensive. gonig invisible and using heal kits on other charactors is a GREAT tatic, or just using range weapons from a distance is a good ideas.

If we want more events we need to give dms more ideas, and the more fun both sides have the more events we have. Tax dms or players and both loose out on fun and decrease playing.


Now instead of asking staff/dms to run more events I say we give them IDEAS of events that 8-10 would be able to survive and enjoy.

my ideas are typically ...odd.

Cheiftan's wife revenge or maybe the orphaned cheif's kids revenge. They kidnap some commoners wanting to see those who butchered their parents.

Miners request some help mining and we struck DROW .

umm a beholder comes and...well I just want to see em.

[Azulfae]

I wasn't really talking about what the DM's run, they can run what they like.

I wasn't trying to discourage either. Like I said, these plots are awsome, there is nothing wrong at all with them. It's just that the combat based portions of such plots are catering for the top of the pyramid.

I see a lot of encouragement verbally for RP builds and not maximising our PC's for just hacking through anything and everything yet at the same time, I take juggra twice to a battle with the yuanti and this is a PC that 90% of the time front lines for average level parties on the server and doesn't much often take a dent. He's built for combat and combat alone and when the lizards came, all he can do is offer his bowls and tickle them with his greataxe.

If I can't at least contribute to fighting the snakes at level 10 with most of my gear at +1 bonuses, what chance do all those non optimised, RP built types have.

I'm not going to go more into it than that because I didn't want this to be a winge, it was merely a suggestion about some variation in difficulty levels so as to cater for the mid ranges and average levels.

[Zoberraz]

Seconded. That was really the point.

[Urithrand]

As DMs we are constantly struggling to find a delicate balance in difficulty, and I think that as a general rule we do a pretty good job. I can only speak for myself when I say that when I run an event, I always open it to whatever levels are willing to join in, then adjust the difficulty accordingly.

Having said that, there is a certain level of realism required here. The sestra lizards have killed, cajoled and beaten their way to take over an entire town and wiped out most of the inhabitants and their military. Of course they're difficult to kill. They're not supposed to be a walkover that just anyone can take on, and some events are just designed to be more challenging.

When a large event is advertised on the forums, large numbers of players invariably turn up, and the level 15s and up constitute a large part of that. Please try to bear in mind that your own point is very valid here, the level 15s don't have the ability to go out and grind for exp, so often these events are geared up towards them. Your level 10 can wade through Cartel or undead in the necropolis and gain shedloads of exp in a relatively short time with the right party, they don't have that opportunity.

I think the key here is to think about other people and realise that sometimes you may just have to sit one out. We can't (though we try) tailor every event to every participant, and yes this can often lead to the high levels taking the lead.

I won't respond to the comment about using RP build in events because I think everyone is aware that is a moot point.

[DM_Equinox]

There are things DMs can do - and there are things players can do.

If we're talking about raids on PC strongholds.. there is always the possibility to make the attacker waves progressively stronger. Also, there are DMs who will run RP only events that don't involve game-engine combat.

Also, what can your character do? He / She can offer to stay behind and take care of the wounded, or scout some place - if you get in touch with a DM and tell them you mean to sneak, they will accomodate you if possible.

If you have a spectacular plan on how to weaken the enemy, by all means tell the DM. If it's a good one, it may cause less resistance. And gain you an extra cookie in the mix.

[Machiavelli]

The majority of my events only involve token amounts of combat, which is usually tailored to the PCs involved. However, that isn't always possible (anyone who's used the DM client in a crowded area will know what I mean), and sometimes it doesn't make any sense to tone down the difficulty.

[DM_Equinox]

But you live in the future, Mach.

[Narse]

A key point here is that the NWN2 combat system is almost completely luck based so this is why difficulty is impossible to pin down for any level. Also if I'm not mistaken, Sundren is an RP story type server. If you are only making characters to be high level badasses who are devoid of personality and are no fun to play outside of fighting and winning battles then perhaps this is not the server (or game) for you.

Also as Nox said there are things you can do as a player, and if you can't manage to have fun with your character without a DM then perhaps it is time to go back to the drawing board.

[Azulfae]

If you are only making characters to be high level badasses who are devoid of personality and are no fun to play outside of fighting and winning battles then perhaps this is not the server (or game) for you.

No

&

if you can't manage to have fun with your character without a DM then perhaps it is time to go back to the drawing board.

No

Don't jump to conclusions, that's not where I am coming from with this.
I love this PC so much I remade him here to continue his journey after 3 years of playing him in NWN1

Outside of the said events I hideously enjoy roleplaying this PC in various non combat scenarios and I am also able to use him to frontline for some very hard to endure grinds into the servers deepest darkest areas.

There is no lack of satisfaction and this is definitly the server for me.

I am soley making a point about the server moving plots and the DC of spawns regarding the players present.

That said the DM's have made some good points and maybe it is fair enough that the combat side of such events are balanced for the players who get no XP gain in any other capacity.

I guess with that in mind I can sit back and let those ub3r guys take the lead on such events. Stick with it enough and those days will come.

Juggra is tough and frontlining is where I see him but perhaps for stuff this heavy it's gonna require a stack of throwing axes for a few more levels and maybe he can just use the fact he can take a whack of damage to get in through the lag and pick up the multiple of the dead and run out again.

One point I did make that I would like to remind of is the idea of partying when these events take place.

Obviously it's not constructive to try and make one big player party but perhaps players of a similar level grouping could actually party up, so for instance if amongst a line of 5-6 level 7ish archers/missile throwers, if one of them manages to deliver a rare killing strike to something, that group of players might get some XP and see that they are contributing. It would also allow those who can heal to see in the chaos who amongst their allies is dying or under sudden and violent attack.

It's partially the lack of co-ordination amongst the lower levels that seems to result in half of them sitting in the forest of eternal night after these events.

[Narse]

Don't jump to conclusions,

What you quoted me on are warnings to all those who read this thread Azulfae, it was not phased toward you, so maybe you should take some of your own advice.

As for your main point Azulfae, that it would be nice for lower level guys to get some spotlight in big server events by dividing into parties holds water as it has been used by DMs in the past, this is not always an option and if players in events can't figure out a way to contribute outside of being able to fight then that is a sign that the character could use some work as in the point of my previous post.