Brambles Spell Overpowered

[MithrilBlade]

Geez, this whole thread is giving me a headache...

Brambles can make any quarterstaff into a +10 attack / +10 damage weapon at mid-level. This is just broke and needs to be tweaked for balance I think.

You are wrong. The spell does not give +10 to attack bonus, it only gives +1 to attack and up to +10 to damage (piercing). The description can be fooling but it does NOT give you a major boost to AB, just and ONLY to damage.

If the hardcoded bug where the game treats attack bonuses and enchantment bonuses as the same still exists in NWN2, I agree that this spell should be tweaked. In PnP DnD, Brambles can't break thru DR X/<whatever constant> unless the weapon can specifically do it.

I am not sure about this claim anymore in SoZ, but remember one thing for sure: DR's in NWN2 and DnD 3.5 do not penetrate by enchantment bonus but by material. I am not sure if it is even -possible- anymore to have enchantment bonus based DR's, but I sure as hell haven't seen a single one as I've played NWN2 from the very start and there has been none in Sundren.
Therefore, it only serves for damage and POSSIBLY +1 enchantment bonus, just POSSIBLY.

As it stands, there are people running around with 3d6/3d6/3d6 elemental damage staves with +10 to attack / damage. That needs changing.

Frankly, it upsets me that people were using this combination and didn't think to bring it to the staff's attention as overpowered. I won't go so far as to call it exploiting, but I'm not happy with those who abused this combo.

Now imho that's somewhat emotional post, I know you wanted to say 1d6/1d6/1d6, but I think the whole 3d6 elemental damage thing has turned into a huge personal war to some people.
Remember that you can also use it for clubs, which would serve -far- better example to this than staves, which deal a minor bit more damage than clubs, but won't enable shields, which on the other hand, are crucial for druids for AC boost. Besides you -can- wield club in two hands and have the STR bonus to damage if you want.
So if you want to express a powergaming aspect of brambles spell, I'd say use the club as an example, not the staff.

And at level fifteen, a cleric would be able to achieve about the same with Persistent Divine Favor and Greater Magic Weapon for a combination which would actually be 1 point stronger, but also last for hours.

...can Brambles be made Persistent?

It can be, yes. It costs 8th level spell slot and a feat that doesn't benefit druids that much, at least if compared to clerics/FS's/arcane casters, but you can do it.
GMW and Divine favour both boost AB by +5 and +3 at level 15 though, so it's cleric's +8 to damage and +8 to AB compared to druid's +10 to damage and +1 to ab.

Its really not that bad by itself if that bug doesn't exist. Melee classes can get much higher at level 10, especially if you add in the Frenzies, the Rages, Weapon Specialization, etc.

The only way it would be broken, IMO, is if the game treated it as a +10 enchantment bonus.

So yeah, it is working just as intended, there are no issues regarding it, except this 3d6 elemental staff problem.

Do remember people that druids will -never- get the amount of focuses that barbarians/fighters/rangers/weapon masters/etc will in weapons and the two weapons that are allowed with the use of brambles are both 20/2x of their critical chances and very low on bludgeoning damage (1d6 for one-handed weapon and 1d8 for two-handed. Compare them to 1d10 bastard sword and 2d6 greatsword, which BOTH are 19-20/2x weapons too).
Thus, weapons that nobody would use except to look cool perhaps. Scimitars are greatly favoured PG weapons when it comes to druidic selection as they have 18-20/2x criticals, which is anotherworldly compared to club.

But as my own point, I think that +10 to damage (NOT now or ever enchantment bonus of +10) is a lot, so you could perhaps tone it down to +5. Just -do- keep in mind that the spell lasts for a few rounds, so unless the druid is at least level 15, you won't be able to score a great deal of hits anyway.
Perhaps if you'll tone it down to +5, you could make it last turns/level instead like GMW, because by then it has lost a great deal of its fashion.

Also, please consider the fact that druids are not the only people with 3d6 weapons, if you see a favoured soul/cleric using one, it's another WORLD for them. They get to boost their weapons with actually long-lasting enchantment bonuses and if blunt weapon, keen too. They get spells like divine might that will boost their STR by 6 and they have a whole bunch of AB boosts, like bless/aid/prayer/battletide/divine favour. This goes of course for Eldritch Knights too with g. heroisms and all mage buffs.

Druids do not have any enchantment bonus buffs and the newest UMD requirement boost in SoZ basically limits them to greater magic fang with animal shapes, which does not even let you have the elemental damage. Going in groups is -completely- another thing, so don't mix it up with this issue please.

As last thing: Play a druid and try out the spell yourselves and then return to this thread and honestly say whether it is -that- overpowered or not.
I haven't seen a single person who'd be as abusing as many people of this thread are quick to point out.

[Kangleton]

Druids don't get any AB buffs other than this. This makes Druids sad.

[Ethelo]

Oh, well if it's actually only +1 to ab then I think it's fine! Apologies.

[Kaeldorn]

When you do take groups into consideration though, +10 is a bit much. As it stacks with any other damage/enhancement bonuses including GMW. Toning it down to 1/2 levels to a maximum of +7 at level 15 isn't unwarranted. While I'm at it, I'll reduce the maximum of GMW to +4 at 1/5 caster levels.

As far as I'm concerned, low magic doesn't only equal less strong magical items. Some spells can use tweaking too...

[Supreme Taco]

Also, please consider the fact that druids are not the only people with 3d6 weapons, if you see a favoured soul/cleric using one, it's another WORLD for them ...

The underlined text is something I'd like to bring up, because you're right. It is another world, and a completely different subject that's irrelevant to this thread. Just like the players who use 1d6, 1d6, 1d6 elemental damage is, and it is even brought up in a separate thread.

As last thing: Play a druid and try out the spell yourselves and then return to this thread and honestly say whether it is -that- overpowered or not.
I haven't seen a single person who'd be as abusing as many people of this thread are quick to point out.

We're not attacking druids specifically, nor using them as the only example, mind you. Clerics and Favored Souls get this spell as well, so please stop feeling as if we're assaulting druids in particular -- We're not. In fact, this entire thread is about the Brambles spell itself and how it interacts with the current systems in place.

The fact that it's only +1 AB and +10 damage instead of the +10 AB and +10 damage we first thought is a very big redeeming factor for this, and thank you for clarifying this, but there really is no need to make such a guarded/defensive post on the matter. The point of this thread is to discuss what we know, how we feel about it, and suggest what to do from there.

With all of that said, I don't believe the spell is powerful in a Druid's hands, because their power comes from a different source of building which involves shape shifting and casting. However, it was powerful in itself when we thought it did +10 AB/+10 Damage.

[Kaeldorn]

Ah.. Just noticed it was 1 round/level, not 1 minute/level as I first thought. Then true, the spell is fine and I'll leave it as it is. Just don't like the idea of too many spells that when stacked together easily lead into the +20's of damage for near indefinite amounts of time, leaving a normally built fighter crying in the corner like the ugly stepchild or something.

[MithrilBlade]

We're not attacking druids specifically, nor using them as the only example, mind you. Clerics and Favored Souls get this spell as well, so please stop feeling as if we're assaulting druids in particular -- We're not. In fact, this entire thread is about the Brambles spell itself and how it interacts with the current systems in place.

The fact that it's only +1 AB and +10 damage instead of the +10 AB and +10 damage we first thought is a very big redeeming factor for this, and thank you for clarifying this, but there really is no need to make such a guarded/defensive post on the matter. The point of this thread is to discuss what we know, how we feel about it, and suggest what to do from there.

With all of that said, I don't believe the spell is powerful in a Druid's hands, because their power comes from a different source of building which involves shape shifting and casting. However, it was powerful in itself when we thought it did +10 AB/+10 Damage.

My apologizes for the defensive post, but I got way too much of this specific "3d6 elemental staff COMBINED with Brambles is uber!" posts to my liking, because I can assure you that no powergamer would pick the staff as their base weapon to abuse this thing (in case it's abuse).

The thing that your post revealed to me, that I had not known before was that it was accessible for clerics too, which changes the whole nature of this spell so I certainly understand your point now.
IMHO it sould be druid-only spell.

Anyhow, I think my main message has been delivered now and the wrong assumptions have been corrected, perhaps the spell should be restricted to just druid characters only though, or given clerics only if they have the Plant domain perhaps?

[Phantom Lamb]

While you may feel it was a personal attack Mithril, at no time were names mentioned.

Try to remember guys, we're thinking big picture. Yes, some thing may make your character weaker, and that gets people pretty animated. (and yes, some subjects get me pretty animated too! )

We'll do some testing and figure out if anything needs changing.