Mage Armor

[PatriotBob]

I'm half posting a suggestion and half asking for clearification.

I'm wondering why the changes were made to Mage Armor? The duration I can understand for balance issues becuase, as it was said, have a player with buffs that last 5 min/level is a long time in this case. So I whole heartedly understand and agree with that change. But why change from +4 Armor to +1 Deflection, Dodge, Armor, NA? A character casting this buff without an armor, dodge, deflection, or NA bonus gains 4 to their AC sure, but it completely makes the spell useless past level 4-5.

As stated in this thread:
http://www.sundren.org/forum/showthread.php?t=4540
None of the bonuses stack.

So when a character begins to purchase an item or two they negate the bonuses from this spell. And with the lack of Bracers of Armor it's very hard to gain a Armor Bonus.
I'm not sure whether you changed Magic Vestment to an Armor bonus or left it as a Shield bonus, it wasn't really specific.
But assuming all spells function normally I don't see the benefit changing Mage Armor to 4 easily redundant bonuses in place of the +4 to Armor which helps fills the gap in AC for casters, as it was designed to do. Deflection, Dodge, and NA were equally accessable to all classes, but with out wearing armor casters don't have a Armor bonus to AC. The problem that Mage Armor was there to fix.

So I'd like suggest Mage Armor's functionality restored to original. (not the duration though)

Sundren is the only PW I've really enjoyed, and I love the constant attention it gets in developement, balance, and from the DM's. I just see this change more breaking a spells usefulness than balancing a problem. And if I've missed something and there is a good reason for the change could you post it. (something less vague than before) I'm intrested to know what the reason behind it was. Thanks guys.

[Kangleton]

Unless there is a perfectly good, unforseen reason (which should be shared in depth) for the Mage Armor change in question, I whole-heartedly agree with the above post.

My level 5 character already has +1 bonuses from all of the catagories other than actual Armor, meaning a Mage Armor spell would only actually be of +1 value, for a minimal duration. That really does kinda make the spell useless.

[Saulus]

Eldritch Knights were stacking too many buff spells so we made the executive decision to change how the spell functions, it's going to stay as is.

[Kangleton]

I'm probably wrong here, but...

Mage Armor originally only gave an Armor bonus, right? It didn't stack with actual armor, right? Eldritch Knights wear actual armor, right?

Wouldn't all of that mean now, that Mage Armor is MORE useful for Eldritch Knights, who would have originally gained no benefit from it, since they already wear armor?

[Venture]

but it completely makes the spell useless past level 4-5.

It does? How so? I use this spell All the time at level 8 and plan on using a hell of alot more at level 9 and ten.

[PatriotBob]

It does? How so? I use this spell All the time at level 8 and plan on using a hell of alot more at level 9 and ten.

Because the bonuses it give don't (or at least shouldn't) stack with item bonuses so if you have Dodge, Deflect, and NA and Mage amor only 1 applies because the do not stack.

I'm somewhat confused. I'm with Kangleton here in thinking that it's of more benefit now than before. Not trying to tear down Sundren just trying to understand the functionality here. Are there bracers of armor, or some other way to acheive a Armor Bonus with out wearing armor I'm not aware of?

And thanks for the awesomely fast response!

[wangxiuming]

I always thought the original Mage Armor did not stack with armor bonuses, not armor itself. So if you have a fullplate +1, Mage Armor would only provide +3. If you have fullplate +2, mage armor would provide additional 2 bonus. With just a regular fullplate, you'd receive the full +4 bonus.

[undeadsteak]

I'm probably wrong here, but...

Mage Armor originally only gave an Armor bonus, right? It didn't stack with actual armor, right? Eldritch Knights wear actual armor, right?

Wouldn't all of that mean now, that Mage Armor is MORE useful for Eldritch Knights, who would have originally gained no benefit from it, since they already wear armor?

Nope, it let them wear armor plus gain the bonuses of mage armor. So most warriors would either cast it from a scroll or Eldritch Knights would simply cast it. They got really high ACs, I believe they could reach like, 40 AC?

[MKartMaster]

Nope, it let them wear armor plus gain the bonuses of mage armor. So most warriors would either cast it from a scroll or Eldritch Knights would simply cast it. They got really high ACs, I believe they could reach like, 40 AC?

So Obsidian dropped the ball on this one then? Because it sure as heck doesn't stack with actual armor in PnP.

If it is Obsidian's fault, then I suppose the Devs' version is a pretty good workaround.

[Mighty_Draco]

So Obsidian dropped the ball on this one then? Because it sure as heck doesn't stack with actual armor in PnP.

If it is Obsidian's fault, then I suppose the Devs' version is a pretty good workaround.

Yea, that's pretty much what happened. PnP mage armor doesn't stack with armor. NWN2 hard coded mage armor doesn't stack with the armor bonus enhancement, but it does with armor. Maybe if there was some way of telling the spellhook to get the armor of the subject, subtract the bonus from the mage armor bonus, and update to changing armor. That way nekkid mages get their armor, but lose it if they put on too much real armor, but that would probably create a bunch of complexities, and thus bugs, glitches, exploits, etc. I find their current solution satisfactory.

[PatriotBob]

Ah yes. Thank you for explaining this one. Obsindian really screwed up. That make the current fix a good alternative. Thanks guys!

[nickbeat]

Sorry to dig this up again, but something just doesn't feel right about this. +1 items exist for all AC types, Helms of deflection, Amulets of Natural Armor, Boots of Dodge, and Robes of +1 AC.

Presuming a character has one of each of these, is there any reason they would even use this spell?

[Kangleton]

No, there isn't. It makes the spell redundant and useless.

[sparkeh]

My wizard doesnt have any of those, so yes I use it.

[Gairun]

It will always give at least +1 ac. Since dodge ac stacks up to +12 I believe. Improved mage armour will always give +2 ac etc. I use it on Aden.