Specialist Wizards... Why mostly Necromancers?

[Machiavelli]

GBX has been seen to despair on the forums at the fact that wizards on Sundren seem to be either Generalists or Necromancers. I thought this a bit odd until I checked the opposed schools for each type of specialist wizard, and found that they weren't anything like I thought! I don't know if tweaking this is easily done, but it might well mean higher uptake on other specialities. Consider the specialities and opposed schools...

Speciality: Opposed School
Abjuration: Conjuration
Conjuration: Transmutation
Divination: Illusion
Enchantment: Illusion
Evocation: Conjuration
Illusion: Enchantment
Necromancy: Divination
Transmutation: Conjuration

Please note that conjuration appears three times, and illusion twice. Necromancy, Evocation and Abjuration don't even make the opposed school list. After having a look at this, it's pretty apparent why people might choose necromancy as a survival tactic, or just opt for generalist... Given that conjuration and Illusion turn up so many times, consider that conjuration contains "Mage Armor" (and improved Mage armor), which are pretty much essential unless you want to hide all the time, and illusion contains Mirror Image (very good stayin' alive type stuff), ghostly visage, and that old favourite for fleeing trouble; invisibility! Two schools that people will be loathe to give up need to be foregone for five out of eight specialities. Conversely, while divination is handy and also good fun, it's pretty obviously the school on the opposed list which it's easiest to do without.

I have no idea if it's possible, but I'd say if this list was tweaked (especially if Necromancy and Evocation were introduced as opposition schools, and/or the prevalance of conjuration and illusion on the opposed list were reduced) then you'd get people playing other specialities more.

Anyways, just a thought!

[Rhifox]

QFE.

One thing that really bothers me is how Enchantment and Illusion oppose each other. Both are practically essential for playing a mind-wizard, yet you can't specialize in either without giving up the other.

[Unholy Carp]

Though I derive a sort of masochistic joy from playing gimped classes and feel a mild temptation to start a Diviner character, I find this one surprisingly easy resist.

[rustediron]

I've always felt the opposite of necromancy should be evocation too... I remember playing BG2 for the first time... (first ever d&d game, I was about 8 xD) and thinking "Cool! necromancer! I remember that word from 'the hobbit'!... wha- what happened to my fireballs!"

Also, necro + specialist + genius feat at 1st lev + red wizard + MIDDLE FINGER OF DOOM FTW

[Rhifox]

Actually the most logical prohibited school for Necromancy is Conjuration, not Evocation. (Necromancy raises the dead as pets, Conjuration uses summoned pets). Conjuration is what is recommend in Complete Mage as the opposed school as well (Divination, in fact, isn't even mentioned as a possible opposition in Complete Mage. Where the devs got the idea for Divination to be it in NWN I'll never understand).

[Machiavelli]

I've gotta say, I wasn't really thinking of which schools should be opposed, though right now it does seem to make little sense from that perspective... I was thinking more of game balance, and the fact that the current situation seems to set up a weird set of incentives where a)most of the specialities don't get used, b)There are only two schools in opposition over most specialities, and c)Some schools don't appear in opposition at all!

[Saulus]

DnD doesn't make sense... lets make it so all classes have the BaB of a weaponmaster!!

[Rhifox]

I've gotta say, I wasn't really thinking of which schools should be opposed, though right now it does seem to make little sense from that perspective... I was thinking more of game balance, and the fact that the current situation seems to set up a weird set of incentives where a)most of the specialities don't get used, b)There are only two schools in opposition over most specialities, and c)Some schools don't appear in opposition at all!

Well the issue is, that in PnP you actually get to choose your prohibited schools, instead of being forced into one (and in PnP, you have to choose two, though that's because spelllists in PnP are much, much larger than they are in-game for the individual schools).

I do believe though that the other schools should be prohibited by some if a choice system can't be implemented.

Red Wizards also have the same problem. When taking a Red level, half of the schools lose Illusion (all of the ones htat didn't lose it already), one or two of them lose Conjuration, and one of them loses Abjuration.

[Machiavelli]

DnD doesn't make sense... lets make it so all classes have the BaB of a weaponmaster!!

Hehe, of course it doesn't! The suggestion was just made with respect to the fact that people seem to be taking necromancy as a speciality, or nothing at all. I don't mind too much myself, but I figured the reason is probably to do with the schools in opposition.

[Brenil]

Well, personally, I took necromancy under the assumption that it really wouldn't matter in the long run. I never envisioned Hlaine as an actual necromancer (and he still only practices it in terms of practical uses, never reanimation), to be honest to my folly I used one of those build guides for classes in order to be understand the very complicated D&D system of building classes.

Needless to say, I've since realized that mistake when I became a Red Wizard. However, it was my mistake and no one else's so I've adjusted the character since. I do agree that the spell schools do somewhat lean toward necromancy being the school that loses the least (or at least as long as you don't become a Red Wizard). Although with MoTB, divination isn't as bad as it used to be with all the new Power Word spells.

I think as Rhifox has told me several times it would be nice if we could choose our own restricted schools or at the very least re-balance them so as to not have it so shifted toward restricting certain schools while not others.

[Machiavelli]

Yup, that's pretty much all I was saying. Two excluded schools would be fine as long as they could be chosen. Barring that, a rebalance of what's on the opposed list would be good.

I don't know if this is possible, or would be considered, I just raised it in response to what GBX said about the types of specialists seen on Sundren. I'm pretty sure, after thinking about it, that this is the reason why...

[GodBeastX]

I personally feel that conjuration is easily ignored. Mage Armor is pointless for a wizard who isn't an Eldritch Knight, and the pets are so underpowered now, they aren't good tanks anymore. I guess you can take conjuration for it's RP element or it's fake-evoking power, but honestly, it's just a waste. Illusion is a biggy to me. Invis can save lives. And once invis is fixed so people don't always see you, I think more people will miss it.

Divination is a must have for me. I couldn't not be able to cast True Seeing.

[Rhifox]

Mage Armor and Improved Mage Armor is definately important, at least for mages that like to solo (Abjuration, Conjuration, and Illusion are all important for defense). It's especially important for AOEing, where you need all the AC you can get to stay alive since Mirror Image goes down after the first round.

There's also Flame Arrow, which, while mostly useless at low levels, becomes one of the strongest single-target spells at higher levels (especially since, due to its low level, means it can be spread throughout many levels with metamagic).

[Machiavelli]

[quote=GodBeastX;37315]I personally feel that conjuration is easily ignored. Mage Armor is pointless for a wizard who isn't an Eldritch Knight [quote]

Not true! Wizards get very dodgy AC, and mage armour is one of the main things to alleviate that. Even if you don't solo, creatures will still slip past your allies and take a pop at you... without mage armour you're pretty much ****ed.

But! Moving away from a discussion of the relative merits of schools (and GBX, the people have voted with their feet against the opinion you stated there by not taking specialities which exclude conjuration... and they really haven't). Let people pick their opposition school(s), or have every school in opposition rather than just a few!

[lordmaple]

Not true! Wizards get very dodgy AC, and mage armour is one of the main things to alleviate that. Even if you don't solo, creatures will still slip past your allies and take a pop at you... without mage armour you're pretty much ****ed.

But! Moving away from a discussion of the relative merits of schools (and GBX, the people have voted with their feet against the opinion you stated there by not taking specialities which exclude conjuration... and they really haven't). Let people pick their opposition school(s), or have every school in opposition rather than just a few!

Believe it or not, I think in AD&D 2nd edition, this was the case; you picked your opposing schools. However, you picked two instead of one.

The reason why I think WoC balanced the specialization of schools this way was because they knew that certain specializations would just be picked over others due to popularity, and that there would have to be a deterrant. Evocation is a no-brainer (Oh oh oh, how do I cast more fireballs?) , and while transmutation and abjuration are a little less obvious, I remember facing a mage in PnP who was a transmutation specialist. He cast Stone to Mud and Mud to Stone in *rapid* succession, which basically froze all of our characters in place, and he gleefully rose into the air and started pelting us.

*however*, I agree with the fundamental nature of this post. I don't think they balanced their concern appropriately- in fact, I much prefer the old 2nd edition system of eliminating two schools of magic.

...and yes, every character needs AC. Even mages. *Especially* on real-time persistant world servers. In PnP, your DM (ok, most DM's) won't give you a "Time Limit" on making a decision, although a 'loose time limit' exists. In real-time, you don't have that 'grace period', which is a lot of the reason why a monster will charge through a front line and nail a mage ><.

*edit*

Also, I think most Wizards are Generalists because such is the nature of being a Wizard; you want less spells, but more range to adapt to a specific situation. I always thought a *true* specialist was a Sorcerer. *meh*