Event in question

[Leevoth]

There was an event earlier today in which Orcs attacked the Trading post. They were extremely high level orcs (as indicated by the Improved Power attack and +20-28 to hit), and in a short time around 15 people had died.

Some people must have survived, as the event continued, but anyway my suggestion is that any Dm's that read this give players challenges that can be overcome (not easily, of course). Or if the challenge can't be overcome (i.e for story progression reasons), a reasonable explanation as to why it can't be should be given. I can imagine it must be very difficult to find a suitable challenge for characters of varying levels and skills, so perhaps when advertising by shout about the event make it clear who is suitable to take on the task. Of course, thats the problem isn't it?

I'm not familiar with running events and I've only been in a few, so I'd like to hear about anyone else's thoughts and experiences. (And I'm grateful to the dwarf who raised me even if it was by accident)

[Rhifox]

This is the first event I've ever been to that actually had a credible threat. (well, not the trading post part, but the initial attack on the Crossroads earlier in the day) More of these are better, IMO, than the previous events where a single spell could kill most of the mobs.

If your character isn't strong enough... run away. Some threats should be too strong for people to be able to handle, and I'd hope we get more like this.

[Raksha]

First point: The Bloodmaims are an established part of Sundren lore. Their story is one of THE PRIMARY driving forces behind the PW. They are badass. Their badass-ery has been established over nearly two centuries of warfare and several conflicts that have resulted in Sundren coming very close to collapse. Having them be anything less than blood-crazed slaughter-happy monsters would simply not be true to the lore.

Second point: There must at some points be enemies that a given party, or individual, cannot defeat. The PW is not an excuse for your character to be heroic, but is itself a big poind, in which there will always be bigger fish. If everything is an Appopriate Level Encounter (TM), a world become very boring very quickly. Some of the best stories are made in struggles against impossible odds, though it's unfortunately not very fun for the folks who die quickly in. Additionally, if there are no high-level threats, there is no incentive for PCs to do anything but go "oooh, fight, XP!" There's no sense of danger.

Third Point: To diffuse any possible snarly replies about DMs being DMs, I'll be the first to say that Defeats By Plot drive me nuts. When I DM, I do my best to be internally consistent because I know very well the feeling when a monster has been set invincible, or is being repeatedly healed, or when Random Mordenkainden's Disjunctions Come Out Of The Sky, and it's not a good one. However, the entire purpose of the DM in combat is to tell a story, and if the story ends up that the group should have hightailed it 15 minutes earlier due to available warnings, and now is going to get smushed, that's just how it goes.

In short, yes, there must be events and NPCs and factions that are terrifyingly powerful, that cause your character to wet their sheets at night. Otherwise, the world becomes rather static and boring. Adversity builds good story.

[ThePaganKing]

I agree with Raksha and if you are low level and you get hit hard and figure you will not win, run, run, run like the wind!

[Blue_Wyrm]

Trust me, you'll be appreciated if you run away from something that would've really totally wet the pants of your character. Like horribly scarred persons who turn their hands into blades. <_< ... >_> ... *winks*

Otherwise, DM events I have been involved in often included moments when it's best not to fight, even essential sometimes for the continuity of the event. I think it's one of the big quirks of playing as a DM, setting up apparently impossible odds and hoping for crafty players to find their way to success. Of course often they are going to fail. :P

[Xanderleo]

I feel that these went well for several reasons. Firstly, it gave people who were present or listened to conversations insight into (as Raksha said) a pivotal piece of Sundren lore. I stayed the first time when I shouldn't have because Sigrun simply underestimated the threat. That's fine, and shortly into the battle I realized my folly, but couldn't run off and leave people (as well as getting systematically dismantled by the enemy too fast for me to heal.)

As far as impossible or nearly impossible creatures, in my experience it's usually a way to narrate and sculpt the story to the liking of the DM and it's completely viable given the medium we're working with. For example...at the initial attack, those orcs would not fall...and TheId slowly introduced more, not to force a TPK (total party kill) but to get us to retreat to the trading post. (or at least that's how I saw it).

If the orcs could be killed, they would have and a few adventurers would have held the entire post...which really isn't inspiring fear of the Bloodmaim. Standing and swinging isn't always the sole answer, which may take longer for certain hot headed dual axe-weilding characters to understand *cough*Sigrun*cough*

I'd also like to bring up this point again (and it's something I've been guilty of as well). Slow down and look at your surroundings during events like this. If there's a huge orc standing over by the edge of the screen doing nothing for a few minutes, chances are the DM is working on setting something up. Initiating combat at this point can make the storytelling more difficult. Granted this isn't always the case, but it's something to consider.

[Dark presence]

I thought it was good. I was only there for the crossroads part, but the DMs left us with a big warning, and as the battle started, it turned into a very scary fight as people were running around trying not to die, and most eventually did.

Lesson? You can't always win! Here it was stand and die or run and live. Like some of the G v. E debates point out, you cannot expect to always win. Thats not fair, and ultimately isn't as fun as the uncertainty of how or if you can overcome a situation.

[rustediron]

Ah, I remember going 1v1 with lord Gan'Deimos... that didn't end too well...

[Vekin]

I was not involved in this event but I do agree that some challanges should be very difficult if not impossible for the players to actually get a win, at least at the start of them. We all at some point fall into the trap of "oh look...baddies lets hit them". Quite often on Sundren this ends up being a bad idea.

Raksha ran a event on Monday which ended up with the group Takhla was in getting the snot beaten out of them and the whole group captured. We probably missed the warning signs but walking into evil central was probably not the best idea. When it all goes wrong just roll with it, the DMs will usually raise you so you dont lose anything, just enjoy the ride and hope nobody decides they want to sacrifice you to Cyric

[rustediron]

Has Tak been Perma'd then? Those Cyric followers can be pretty thorough. Never really liked Cyric since BG2 with the dude in the docks district of Athkatla.

[Vekin]

Has Tak been Perma'd then? Those Cyric followers can be pretty thorough. Never really liked Cyric since BG2 with the dude in the docks district of Athkatla.

Nope she is still alive.....might be a DM oversight

[GodBeastX]

Hi! Okay, to complaining player who said "Why did I die?!?! That's crazy!"


a) Soldiers came in and said "We spotted some Bloodmaim scouts and we're going to warn the farms! You guys here at the camp are warned too!"

b) After that, Tao got a Divination vision "Trouble is coming... anyone who does not want to die had best leave." Then leaves herself. That right there pretty much says "If you say you're going to die." People like to ignore the idea death is around the corner though.

c) After players killed the scouts, TheId gave them warning of the message the Soldiers gave them about the scouts.

d) Players always think hostile == you can win.


My advice, read the writing on the wall. The only people who survived the event were the ones who ran.

[aleksei_aiden]

This happened in a similar event I was involved with at a earlier level. I think level 5 or 6. There was a vampire who was at a camp, and there were probably 4+ characters there. Some were just talking to the vampire like it was no big deal. Other characters however showed that they were quite scarred, and were cowering at the fact a vampire was -right- there in their face.

When another one showed up, and an arguement came about with an orc not wishing to listen to the vampire and not do what the vampire asked of him...death ensued. Out of those 4+ people, only two survived the initial encounter when the vampires summoned thralls to kill/massacre them for their disobedience and lack of respect.

I think there should be things that cannot be defeated. Sure you'll have the occasional knuckle head who will want to stick and fight. That can't be helped, and if it is your character who wants to stay--that is fine!

It is not okay however, to realize your character was given a chance--your character ignores it, and you ignore it. Because then complications form when people think their character's Sh*t don't stink...and then they DIE. The player has no reason to complain since they -were- given an option to run and they themselves ignored it along with their character(s). Sure, sometimes it bites big arse when your character gets killed. I personally -laugh- when my characters die due to stupidity. I laugh. And as the player, I realize that it is my fault if I was given a chance to run and I chose to let my character act in a certain way. MY responsibility, not the DM's.

Conversely, if a DM suddenly DROP stuff on you without a foreshadow to it--just totally out of nowhere with no checks, etc. No warning. Then I can see where you might have reason to complain...but other than THOSE sort of things, I don't see a reason to complain.

Afterall, it is a game, and we do spend time leveling our characters, roleplaying them, and watching them come and go. That is how roleplay rolls, that is how I roll. If oneof my characters gets killed and permed--hell yes I will be upset. But I won't go as far as to say it was 'unfair'. Especially when I myself understand the risks of my characters' actions.

[undeadsteak]

They're bloodmaim orcs.



Bloodmaim orcs = RUN.


They're on the wiki i believe. You can't beat everything, sorry.


Anyways, im just repeating what everyone said, and they're quite right ^^

[GodBeastX]

You can beat 1 bloodmaim, you can beat 3, you guys did it. Pat yourselves on the back! Then an army comes? OH CRAP!