Disarm

[thaelis]

People claim they feel bad for using it, but that hasn't stopped them and likely won't stop them from using it in the future.

Yeah...I can't see people stopping using it if they know it grants them instant win against most Fighter-types.

I think the fact that people blame the person who lost their weapon is a bit off. "Well you should have known better than to get in PvP with someone that can Disarm!" Seriously?

Unfortunately there is no easy answer to this.

Moral of the Story: Craft your minor artifact +5 holy vorpal avenger, or buy it from faction store, whatever, then hang it on the wall in your faction HQ. Do not, under any circumstances, use it! Because that would just be silly.

[Doubtful]

The thing is if the current 'be nice, don't be a fucking moron' type guide doesn't work, neither will a firmer rule. Which will mean we'll simply have to remove a useful and legitimate feature.

This is why we can't have nice things.

Edit: I don't blame the victim/weapon looser, the fault is completely and utterly with the fecking oily cretins who for some reason think its fine to use buggy features against other players.

[thaelis]

Idea: If the Disarm/Improved Disarm bugs are impossible to fix, is it perhaps possible to modify it so that the feats do not work unless the enemy is 2 or more levels lower than you? e.g. A 20th level Fighter could only disarm enemies of level 18 or lower.

If it didn't work against enemies close to or above your level that might solve 90% of the problem?

Also, high level players (20+) are usually the ones with the super shiny DM-granted weapons that will make them cry to lose. They are also the ones that get in PvP the most.

Edit: Sorry if this is a stupid/ignorant idea, I know nothing about coding!

[Lugwy]

May be disjointed because it's late and I have a terribly scratchy throat.

The problem isn't Disarm doing what it's intended to do. That's fine. The problem is that there's so many ways it bugs and breaks enjoyment for the players involved that it's really not worth knighting for. Its use in PvE is nice, but not really essential, and an honour code isn't going to stop people from having it and using it in PvP where the stakes are higher. Passions run high and some people forget...or don't.

With some of the environments available for PvP, there's far too many potential scenarios waiting to happen from unlucky disarms.

[Kaybrie]

Isn't most of the problem inherently with weapons that are made to be undrop-able? Would it not be a better move to instead make these weapons drop-able so we could just pick it up afterward? So far as I'm aware, the feat works perfectly fine on non-cursed, non-plot items. (Aside from when it very, very rarely slips under a terrain feature.)

The flipside is easy to police, find a black hand guy with legion weaponry? dock levels and take it away.

[Fury]

Ok, call me crazy here- (and really, it'd be an apt description)- but the logic on this is simple.

It. Destroys. Weapons.

I don't care how realistic a tactic it might be, or how viable, or whatever. The end result is that you have a feat that does something it shouldn't. Disarm, last I checked, does not translate into destroy. If it were a case of knocking things on the ground, then great, fine, whatever. It doesn't just do that. It's a bad piece of programming that needs to be fixed, or disabled.

Asking players to play responsibly is sadly pipe dreaming. Asking them to carry PVP only weapons of piss poor quality and cost is... stupid.

I dunno. Maybe I'm wrong on this, but frankly if the staff wishes to leave in a feat that is so broken it can and will utterly destroy gear, then DMs need to be ready to replace things that are destroyed, since a Disarm feat should never do that. It should, by very definition, just knock a weapon to the ground.

[DarkPla]

I doubt it'll save headaches and stress, it'll just get the staff involved a lot more as people wave screenshots and angst about, then whoever has been using it will claim "I didn't know" or "You're victimising me you fascist asshat, I fucking paid for this game so I can do what I want you soggy douche" or "Hey, I can still take it as a feat so I can still use it. If it was a problem you'd have removed it completely" or any other special butterfly excuse. Then there'll be the totes emosh moment where we have to threaten bans and all that crap, and people will leave because Sundrens staff are militant shits who hate players having fun or enjoying themselves or whatever crap it is that we do this week.

We'll discuss it amongst the staff, if people really can't play with each other without being a sack of assery then we'll have to remove yet more features or stick in yet more rules. Hooray.

And run lower even in population now is what OB>VIOUSLY the server don't need, 100% with you m8.

Just, as my mom used to say when i was a child, don't do to other people that you don't want people doing to you

DarkPla

[Cornuto]

If you use improved disarm while unarmed, the disarmed weapon goes directly into your inventory which is p. rad if you normally fight unarmed (and also bypasses the 'destroyed weapon' bug.)

I only mention this because my monk has improved disarm and I'd be annoyed if he lost the feat.

(Altough I'd happily trade it for MF'ing intuitive attack!)

[Doubtful]

There are actually a couple of issues at work here, first is that its apparent that that some weapons still have blueprints that are set to not-disarmable, meaning that when someone tries to disarm them they are destroyed not knocked to the ground.

The second issue is that there game isn't always sensible when it comes to disarmed weapon placement and can do crazy stuff like place disarmed weapons in unwalkable areas, in placables or outside of mapped bounds, items placed thusly are gone.

The third issue is improved disarm, which opens up yet more bugs and problems that I can't be bothered to list.

Unfortunately disarm and improved disarm are both hardcoded feats, so we can't actually fix the scripts or replace them with something useful (such as just having the weapons knocked back into the owners inventory), which really is a shame.

Edit:

We'll keep an eye on the situation for now, if problems arise with disarm then let us know via the character/help requests forum.

If it becomes apparent that certain players, items, locations or whatever are the cause of the problem then we can deal with them on an individual basis.

Otherwise, have fun.

[Cornuto]

I think the flag that results in this is 'droppable.' Disarm tries to drop the weapon, it can't be dropped so its destroyed. You might also have to update/replace the shop instances that sell those item blueprints.

[Kitsunestume]

I would like to suggest a sticky quoting Doubt in Public Information.

[Doubtful]

Alright, apparently shouty and draconian are out this season and it's all about being nice and helpful. So...

Disarm is OK to use in PvP and PvE, if a weapon is destroyed or knocked out of touch then file a help request with screenshots and the team will replace it at their earliest convenience.

On a personal note I'd strongly encourage players to exhibit common sense when using disarm, particularly in tight quarters. Be fair with weapons taken with disarm/improved disarm, don't be a total shitbag and sell them to stores - be respectful and try to find an ic way to reunite weapons and owners. Cheesemongers who use normal disarm, grab the weapon and run are liable to be hated oocly by pretty much everyone. (As an aside there are no firm rules against those things, however its been scientifically proven that PCs who do these things have a much higher than normal chance of suffering tragic and perminant accidents).

Play nice, make it fun - or sod off.

[ManUtd4Ever]

I just got home from work and logged in to read the forum and was a bit shocked at the some of descriptive comments being used to describe some of player base.

I don't blame the victim/weapon looser, the fault is completely and utterly with the fecking oily cretins who for some reason think its fine to use buggy features against other players.

There is way too much presumption in this statement... from a Senior DM. The post asserts that the person who lost the weapon did not, could not, and would never have used disarm in PvP... They were merely the victim of [insert all the vile descriptions you have used in this post so far] character who indiscriminately used disarm - knowing it would likely result in the loss of a highly prized weapon - on the victim/weapon looser.

As with most things, it is never this easy. I too believe disarm in PvE is a great thing to have... when it actually works. It doesn't work against most bosses.

I too believe disarm in PvP is something to avoid... however, I personally draw the line when my own enchanted weapon is disarmed. Once this happens, it's game on. One size never fits all... and this issue is certainly a good example of that maxim.

Cheers

[Lotus]

Vivid descriptions of those using Disarm were borne out of misinformation, I think.

We will not be creating intangible restrictions on a PC's use of the Disarm feat. If you have it, feel free to use it. Remember that you are not entitled to keep an opponent's item unless you actually win the PvP (that is, you subdue or mechanically kill them). That means if you disarm someone, neither you nor anyone else present save the disarmed PC has a right to collect the item from the ground. Common sense rules here: if an obviously allied PC picks up his friend's dropped sword, that's obviously okay.

If the disarmed PC escapes, quietly and OOC return the item. If you defeat the disarmed party (via subdual or mechanical death), you have a right to one item from that PC's inventory and may choose to keep the disarmed item or return it in favor of choosing something else (or, if you're classy like me, decline to take anything).

The exception to the above is Improved Disarm used by an empty-handed PC, which places the weapon in the Disarming PC's inventory. If victorious, you may choose to keep that item, but otherwise, quietly return it.

If you are disarmed and your weapon disappears, take a screenshot, file a Help Request, and we'll take care of it.

[[DM] Grinning Death]

I just got home from work and logged in to read the forum and was a bit shocked at the some of descriptive comments being used to describe some of player base.

Also, please understand we aren't robots. We are human beings, despite the professional exterior we exude on a regular basis, confronted by players who also use descriptive comments to describe the player base, and even the DM staff.

Casting stones with sin, and all that. We appreciate your understanding.