Intuitive Attack

[Lotus]

Seeing as they can get to +20 naked Will save naked then add in all the Save throw gear *gasps* easily top 30 20 30 as a Fighter. A stat spread of 16 14 14 14 10 14 isn't very min maxed and with gear you can easily be 24 16 18 14 10 18 Not exactly what I would call a Door Knob. I expressed over a year ago that Fighters could get their Saves up over 20, just because you can't figure it out doesn't mean they can't. Took someone who is good with builds about a year to see that I wasn't full of poop with claiming this.

So Prebuff you're walking around with 42 AB with Paladin Saves and AC, with that sweet 17-20 x 4 Crit.

I guess what I am saying is that your argument for the Intuitive attack not coming into the game is a really weak argument. So yes, please, let's get real here.

Fighter Will Save is low, so 6. Add CON for Steadfast determination, so 10. That's your naked Will save. Bravery is only saves v. Fear; that is, not your actual Will save. Iron Will is 12, assuming you took Iron Will. You're short by 8 for that naked Will save, short by 18 for that fabled 30. Fort Save is 12. CON is giving 4 for 16. You're telling me that Fighters are getting +14 to their Fort saves from gear. No, they're not. Reflex save is 6. DEX in your example is 3. That's 9. Fighters are not getting +11 to their Reflex saves from gear.

A Paladin has high saves of Fort and Will, 12 and 12. We can assume a modified CON of 18 and a WIS of 14. 16 and 12. Add 8 from Charisma. 24 and 20, no gear. Reflex is 6. Assume 1 from DEX: 7. Add Charisma, totals 15 before gear. If the paladin were to build Steadfast Determination like the fighter in the example, that'd be a Will save of 24, no gear.

No, they don't get remotely close to Paladin saves. Neither do they get immunity to fear, or disease, or charm, or DR 10/evil, or Level/2 + CHA uses of 60+ point free action heal that also removes debuffs, or spell casting, or smite evil. They do have comparable AC if built in a certain way and do better damage.

Basically, you have no idea what you're talking about, you're not doing responsible math, and you're drawing false comparisons by pointing at three attributes (AB/DMG, AC, Saves) and saying that fighters are superior, but in addition to actually getting some of the numbers grossly wrong, you're willfully ignoring other class features that create the balance.

tl;dr
Monks don't suck, and be good at numbers if you're going to use them.

[Satoshi]

I can attest to Lotus' math, because I have a Will-Save Fighter with about the stats (and feats) used above. I could go +2-3 points higher (not elf for higher Con->Will, Devout for +1, and not Natural Leader for -1), but with gear, that still leaves 14-15 will save (with 2x rolls) at the cost of minimum four feats. And for the record, I have the best Legion Fighter Gear.

On topic: Monks are good at what they do, could be slightly better but definitely low priority. And you have the option to multiclass into win, so I don't see the problem here. Reworks should be saved for classes that are absolutely pointless with no future. Like Arcane Tricksters.

[Mournas]

Then I guess I'll just need to make the build and show you the numbers.

[Phantom Lamb]

The fuck is going on in this thread? I just wanted monks to be less shitty.

For realz! And I thought I was mean.

[Torgar]

Lotus has built more fighters then anyone on the server, I can personally attest to this fact. His numbers are entirely correct, because I was with him every time those numbers were gone through. I've seen the gear in the faction stores, and there isn't gear that will give ANY fighter a non-buff will save of 20, let alone 30. Not a pure fighter. Sure, if you cross-class one level of a class with spell craft, you can get spell craft to 20 and get +4 to saves vs. spells. Make it a dwarf, add another +2. But that's vs. spells, not a flat will bonus of +30 like you are stating, Mournas.

If you make a fighter to have great saves with saving through gear, guess what? Your AC probably isn't that great and your AB is only in the mid 30's, not 42, because you had to nuke your STR score to make your dex/con/wis higher, and you had to waste feats on +2 fort/ref/will.

BTW, I had a level 20 fighter in full legion gear fight a full blooded monk, and I only won because of a really cheap tactic of using a "Ring of the Ram" because otherwise, that monk wrecked me. Improved knockdown + stunning fist + disarm= Sad fighter. Doesnt' matter what you get your Fort save to, a monk likely has enough of a save DC on their stunning fist to make you fail.

That being said, I'm not against monks getting intuitive attack for the reason that a high wisdom monk using this feat for their AC and their AB is no different then a high dex monk using finesse for AC and AB. I do think that, in order to keep it in tune with it's origin's as an exalted feat, only GOOD ALIGNED monks should be able to take it. And, they should lose the ability to use the feat if they become neutral/evil down the line.

[Handsomeman]

I have a lvl 15 strength monk with best monk store gears. He does seem a little underpowered compared to most other classes in terms of pve. I think he would actually be decent if the monk store had gear like faction stores. Maybe something like +4 wis +3 ac amulet, +4 dex +3 ac boots, + 3 ab +4 str gloves. I don't think it's necessary to give monks the intuitive attack feat if better gears were available for them. Though the intuitive attack feat wouldn't be so bad if it were restricted to full monks.

As for fighters having paladin like saves, high ab, ac and crits... My lvl 22 fighter has like 11 will save. He has to sacrifice ab to gain ac with expertise. The only way I see a fighter getting high save, ab and ac is if they multiclass the dwarven defender, and they lose their mighty crits and some other feats for that.

[Vladadier]

I have a lvl 15 strength monk with best monk store gears. He does seem a little underpowered compared to most other classes in terms of pve. I think he would actually be decent if the monk store had gear like faction stores. Maybe something like +4 wis +3 ac amulet, +4 dex +3 ac boots, + 3 ab +4 str gloves. I don't think it's necessary to give monks the intuitive attack feat if better gears were available for them. Though the intuitive attack feat wouldn't be so bad if it were restricted to full monks.

You went strength monk, that was your mistake... Before I retired Anosh, he could solo most of Whurest, save for the smith and mindflayer, and the purple named defenders made me nervous a few times. He had 42 unbuffed AC. I will say his AB was only 27, and his dmg was eh. But Black Hand didn't have half the gear other factions have for monks

[Vladadier]

I also have to say, on this server, Fighters are a bit OP. They get all those bonus feats, AND they have the icing on the WM's cake built in, without having to get the pre-reqs. I was never drawn to a WM for the ki damage... So WM's are useless

[mrmortis]

I also have to say, on this server, Fighters are a bit OP. They get all those bonus feats, AND they have the icing on the WM's cake built in, without having to get the pre-reqs. I was never drawn to a WM for the ki damage... So WM's are useless

I am going 8 fighter/7 WM/5 Frenzied Berserker with a scythe and I will be critting comfortably into the 200's fairly often. The down side is the character has papier-mache for AC. I saw a thread saying healers are not very useful but this character needs a medic attached at the hip. Still, I think it's fun as Hell to play. I'd love to see if a 20 fighter/7 WM would get the bonuses to stack for CRAZY multipliers and crit range, but getting to 27 any time before 2050 seems unlikely.

Reading this thread does make me want to try a monk though, just to see for myself how good/bad they are.

[Doubtful]

This thread has devolved into the kind of negative crap that makes me question why I even bother putting any effort into Sundren.