Knock, knock.. Who's there?

[sonuvalich]

Haha.

The fact that Saulus is laughing at my ridicule fills me with confusion. Can't tell if ball-breaking or intervention...

[Fury]

So how about the knock spell adds ranks to open lock (similar to appraising touch but for lockpicking) something like +CL but without at least a point invested you still can't use the skill?

That's basically what thieves tools do.

[Laurk]

Having the spell add ranks to your skill won't do anything unless your character has at least 1 rank in Open Locks as its a trained skill.

[sonuvalich]

That is literally what I suggested, the spell adds ranks to the target's open locks, but since it is a trained only skill you still need to spend at least 1 point in the skill for it to be useful. Basically, arcane boost to lockpicking instead of the thieves' tools.

It could last like 6 sec/level and add a boost of something like 1/2 CL (max 10) to the open lock skill. That way, people who cross-class it and can't get many ranks could still get the odd door opened, without seriously undermining rogues.

[Phantom Lamb]

You're all looking at this the wrong way.

The rogue should invest in UMD so he can use Knock scrolls.

[thaelis]

I personally would not mind seeing Knock be able to open some lower DC locks, but I think I think I would still prefer to see locks guarding higher-tier treasure or in higher-level dungeons be something reserved for those who invest into Open Lock.

I'm of a similar opinion. I think that making doors completely inaccessible without a Rogue is kinda silly. Just give them a ton of HP and damage reduction 15 (adamantine reinforced!). Boss treasure chests though....yeah they should be impossible to break open without a Rogue.

As for making Rogues more useful make traps have DC's higher than 15! And make a script which randomly drops traps so you don't know where every trap in the game is and can avoid them with ease That'd be a lot more incentive to have a Rogue than locked doors which are just frustrating.

[kitteninablender]

In Pathfinder the Knock spell does this: You can open a lock without Thieves tools (Though if you have them, you get a bonus), and you make a caster level check against the DC of the lock with a +10 bonus. So Simple locks are a DC 20, Average is 25, complex is 30, and Amazing locks are 40.

In addition Knock only opens up to two means of closure. As a man who has lived in Atlanta, Georgia I know for certain that several places put two or three locks on the door as well as a deadbolt. It was a bad neighborhood...lol.

But now....*sets up soap box and steps upon it.*:

Knock is not meant to replace a Rogue. It's not meant to render them useless. It's not meant to be one more way for the Wizard to turn to his party mates and go "Ha ha, anything you can do I can do better!"

That being said however, that's the key difference in playing a Wizard vs. a Sorceror or a Bard. It's the Wizard's job to be a utilitarian. It's the Wizard's job to have enough variety in his spellbook that, depending on how he's prepared his spells, he is capable of completely changing his party role for the day.

If the Wizard wants to aid a fighter he has the spells to do so. He can prepare Tenser's Transformation, and Premonition, and Greater Magic Weapon, and all of that. This still, however, does not mean he is as skilled a Fighter as someone who has become a purely dedicated 20 level fighter.

If the wizard wants to take on a more roguish aspect he prepares Invisibility, Knock, Detect Secret Doors, and various other spells. He can EMULATE a Rogue, but he's certainly never going to be a complete replacement for one.

A Wizard will never out-blast a dedicated Sorceror, or out-sneak or out-lock pick a Rogue. He'll never swing as hard as a fighter.

Think of a Wizard as Batman with a utility belt. He has such a wide variety of spells that, at the start of the day (or night, in Batman's case) he can completely refit and re-allocate his spells just like Batman might change around the things he carries in his belt. Sure, he may always keep the staples: Batman keeps his Grapnel Gun, the Wizard keeps a Fireball.

But in the end, if they know what they are going up against, the Wizard has time to properly prepare. If he knows there's going to be a lot of locked chests, he prepares for such. If Batman is going up against Clayface, he takes along his Nitrogen capsules. It's not the Wizards responsibility to have all the answers all the time. It's his job to have just the right answer at just the right time.

Thank you. *Gets off his soap-box, prepares for tomatoes to fly.*

[BubbaCornbread]

I agree with Sandro, you could have the knock provide a basic lock-pick skill, say DC10 and then it can increase with your actual lockpick skills.

I also agree that you can take lockpick and open most locks in the game with a bit of dedicated skill points. Both of my characters took able learner, lockpick, and UMD so that they could be more versatile. Also, because I am in the European timezone, it is very hard to find all the right players to access all the dungeons, so I provide myself with the skills. Of course, they are not as good as other classes, but I can usually get by.

I also think that if you do make it so that you require a certain class and/or very high skill to access certain things in the game, it is screwing players that cannot find a party. Sometimes I am the only guy on the server, or maybe me and two others and they are either afk or doing something else or have a character way below or way above my own.

[Saulus]

I agree that RP shouldn't mimic real life. I could drone on for hours about Sundren's sewer system... Where does that flow out, anyway?

Right above Port Avanthyr, that's why Sundays everyone is always at Church.

The increased precipitation also replenishes the city's drinking and cleaning water. If there's not enough rain, the Hands just steer to the closest rain cloud -- probably a few well placed lightning rods in the city (maybe one of them powers a mad wizard's lab).

[cmosier]

I also think that if you do make it so that you require a certain class and/or very high skill to access certain things in the game, it is screwing players that cannot find a party. Sometimes I am the only guy on the server, or maybe me and two others and they are either afk or doing something else or have a character way below or way above my own.

I'd imagine this is a large issue when it comes to hashing all this out. Trying to find that line of balance. You'd be in the same boat if you wanted to play a rogue because there wouldn't be any fighter types on to party up with.

It's a shame because I enjoy RPing with your characters. :-)

[gbbishop]

Having the spell add ranks to your skill won't do anything unless your character has at least 1 rank in Open Locks as its a trained skill.

Yeah see I don't see it working this way at all. I see it as "I'm a wizard." waves hand - door opens.

[gbbishop]

The flip side of "everybody is here to have fun" would be the rogue who is mediocre in a fight and has to watch the super buffed warriors and their wizard lackey charge through traps and Knock every lock open.

Paladins are very powerful. There code is supposed to be a restriction. Good or Neutral rogues can be hard to come by. I believe "shit out of luck" is appropriate in this instance.

I'm saying this as a guy playing a fighter. There are things Byrun cannot do without a caster's help. That means I'm also shit out of luck if I want to do the daily and Sandro is in one of his moods.

The point is, sometimes you're just going to have to accept the limitations of your character or find an RP way to make nice with a rogue. The world shouldn't change for the character. The character needs to adapt to the world.

Sorry, this is idealistic at best and a mentality that works in PnP but fails in a PW. (especially for low population timezones)

In addition, some of us cannot devote regular play times to regular game groups. Which is ideal, in an idealistic world. But has utterly failed every time I have strived for it in the four+ years on this server. Knock should open a DC30 (if memory serves) but the server looks are much more "elite."

I just think a little boost in Knocks potency, so that it is useful past 5th level would be good form. I don't see it over shining a rogue in my party.

I liked the Caster level + something, idea...

Oh one more thing, why ever would a "lackey-mage" waste slots on knock when they travel with a rogue?

[gbbishop]

I've seen lots of of rogues open those locks. That's how they pull their weight. As for Byrun... he may need a little help when he does the Daily, but he knows enough shady people to get through locked doors. :-)

If opening a door is the only reason to play a rogue... I would never play a rogue. LOL

[kitteninablender]

The thing that gets me? Why the hell can't I just SMASH a door open?>

There's a mission where I have to kill the Spittlefist Goblin. There's a door in the hallway tha I can't open, I didn't invest point in open lock because...well..Skaald's a bloody Berserker. There's no logical reason whatsoever to justify, RP wise, why he would ever actually invest points in the Open Lock skill.

Skaald has a means of opening locks. It's called a Greatsword. But apparently every door in the server is bloody indestructible. :P

[Saulus]

Doors aren't breakable because they aren't respawnable. Meaning if we set a lock on a door people will simply destroy and move on, and for then next 24 hours that dungeon now misses locks/doors for that section.

There is a script used on doors to open them after they have been beaten down enough, but it might not be setup on all doors.