Knock, knock.. Who's there?

[Fury]

A PW should be a representation of what a "real" world should be like- and if you can't open a lock or disarm a trap, or don't know someone who can- you should be just as shit out of luck as the rogue who really wants to do a little solo adventuring, but gets dropped by a freaking bat. Or... anything that looks at them hard, really. Sad truth is that the class absolutely requires you to have a group just to survive. So, the average rogue is terribly broken hearted that you can't get into that room... at least you can come out with your skin.

And Sandro, sometimes you're just tempermental.... and moody. Do you need some chocolate?

[sonuvalich]

and sandro, sometimes you're just tempermental.... And moody. Do you need some chocolate? :d

Dafuq?!?

[Valhalla]

[...]

If your rogue isn't pulling their weight, that was a build choice they made. Just like a fighter could be built with a bunch of skill focuses and a high charisma and be vastly less effective in combat.

And there's a difference between needing a class like what you said you support, and needing help.

Byrun doesn't need Sandro to do the daily. Byrun needs help. I've seen two level 20 fighters duo it. I've seen a level 20 fighter tank it for 2 archers. Just like with Whurest - you don't need a wizard or cleric to beat it. Overwhelming force works.

Having to compensate for the lack of something = awesome.

Not being about to do something because you lack something specific = shitty.

[Valhalla]

Edit: double posting D:

[cmosier]

I've seen lots of of rogues open those locks. That's how they pull their weight. As for Byrun... he may need a little help when he does the Daily, but he knows enough shady people to get through locked doors. :-)

[Fury]

Not being about to do something because you lack something specific = Life.

Fixed that for you.

[Valhalla]

I treasure fun over mimicking real life in my Dungeons and Dragons.

Perhaps that's unusual amongst a group of people pretending to be magical creatures with fantastic cosmic powers and big hunks of sharp iron, but somehow I doubt it.

[cmosier]

I agree that RP shouldn't mimic real life. I could drone on for hours about Sundren's sewer system... Where does that flow out, anyway?

However, if a person's idea of fun is being able to conquer every obstacle alone or with relative ease, there's an issue. Those little conundrums... Like... How does a law abiding paladin get through that locked door without dealing with a shady element... is kind of part of the game.

Personally... I see more people looking for reasons their character can't RP with some one instead of looking for an opportunity to do so.

[Fury]

We are all walking a fine line between fantasy and reality. If this were entirely for fun, and without any realistic challenges, we should just be able to wish ourselves the richest, most powerful beings on the planet. And, well... that ends up not being fun either.

I don't mean to sound aggressively contradictory, here, even though I probably do. I just personally believe that each class and individual has their skills, and if you don't have them- then you need to learn them, or know someone who does. If you want to open locks, learn the skill. It's that simple.

[Fuzziebunny]

I am not certain why it is not good rp for the Knock spell to actually work. This is an in game spell. No one is complaining about raise dead scrolls taking away from clerics. Raising the dead is a cleric skill and anyone with UMD can cast the scroll. Heck you can even buy the scrolls in certain places unless that has been fixed. Why is knock different? It has been stated that anyone can put points in the skill open lock. I suppose I don't see the correlation that rogues are useless if they can't be the one to pick the lock. There are so many other uses for rogues.

Rogues have their place and they don't need to just open locks to be effective at their jobs. Nothing says they can't scout, disarm traps, or do any number of things rogues do in dungeons. If you feel the rp is limited then revive it. Stop rushing about and send out your rogues to scout. Slow down a little and rp the encounter. I would adore being in a group where the rogue reported back every so often on the enemy movements in a dungeon. I am sure not every group would want to see this. But I am sure that plenty of people would enjoy doing something like this often enough.

[Valhalla]

Maybe I wasn't making my point very well, but I think we actually agree with each other. So maybe bullets will help

1). Knock is a silly spell. No disagreement there.
2). Opening locks should require an investment in the skill.
3). It should not, however, require a Rogue specifically, just the skill.

That way people who take Able learner, or dip some rogue levels (or both) can fill in if necessary, but the investment to do so is much higher for non-rogues than it is for rogues.

[cmosier]

Maybe I wasn't making my point very well, but I think we actually agree with each other. So maybe bullets will help

1). Knock is a silly spell. No disagreement there.
2). Opening locks should require an investment in the skill.
3). It should not, however, require a Rogue specifically, just the skill.

That way people who take Able learner, or dip some rogue levels (or both) can fill in if necessary, but the investment to do so is much higher for non-rogues than it is for rogues.

Agreed.

[Fury]

Maybe I wasn't making my point very well, but I think we actually agree with each other. So maybe bullets will help

1). Knock is a silly spell. No disagreement there.
2). Opening locks should require an investment in the skill.
3). It should not, however, require a Rogue specifically, just the skill.

That way people who take Able learner, or dip some rogue levels (or both) can fill in if necessary, but the investment to do so is much higher for non-rogues than it is for rogues.

Ok, yes. Then we are basically saying the same thing. Rogues have other skills than just opening locks and disarming traps that should make them preferable to have around- but at the same time I don't believe I have ever made a character, rogue or not, that did not have at least a couple of points in open lock- every adventurer just periodically needs to get into something or somewhere that other people really don't want them to.

[sonuvalich]

So how about the knock spell adds ranks to open lock (similar to appraising touch but for lockpicking) something like +CL but without at least a point invested you still can't use the skill?

[Laurk]

Knock is an old PnP spell and should not be altered. It should absolutly open any door thats not warded against it.

The way I would solve this is, more locked doors & chests. A lock shouldn't hinder your ability to go to dungeons. However it should hinder your ability to maximise treasure. There should be far more locked chests & doors leading to chests. That way a wizard, unless they prepare tons of knock spells (unlikley) will not replace a rogue. Sure you could have an option to bust down doors and break open chests, but this should also have a good % chance of destroying the treasure inside.

A rogue is a support PC who fills several roles in a group. One of most compelling is maximising an adventuring group's ability to make tons of coin in a dungeon.

Here's a great example: In a dungeon, you come to two locked doors. The wizard can use knock to open them. Inside he finds 5 locked chests. Sure a wizard might have enough knock spells prepared to get a few of them, but if you want them all, use a rogue.

Wizard with knock (willing to sacrifice combat for utility a bit)= extra treasure
Rogue's open lock = lots of extra treasure

Edit: The solution to making "knock wands" the end-all then is to just make sure the wands are expensive to make. That way even if you make a knock wand, while you'll replace rogues, you won't maximise treasure since it cost you a small fortune to make the thing in the first place.