Knock, knock.. Who's there?

[dangotgam]

My primary point, I suppose, is that if you are having to deal with limitations on your character... well... I have no sympathy. Every character should have limitations.

I completely agree. The argument I (and others, I think) are making is that opening a lock with a spell is well within the left and right limits of a Wizard. Not all locks. Some. More than what is currently allowed on the server. And that by allowing Wizards to do this, it will not severely limit rogues, as they are much more than just keys.

I was getting the impression that the above is not shared with everyone. Maybe I'm wrong, then, and just misunderstood the tongue-in-check comment you made as actual concern for rogues if this suggestion were, in fact, to go through.

And sure- Maybe the answer is to just have bad guys drop keys, since it isn't feasible to destroy doors.

[sonuvalich]

And along with River's point, where are the keys for all those freakin' Viridale chests that not even a rogue can open? Why must we taunt the poor rogues with unpickable treasures?

[Fury]

Since we are engaging in plain-speak, I'll do so as well. I made one comment, rather tongue in cheek. Here, I'll even quote it:

Wait... there are actually places where I could be using my open lock skill? Really?
DON'T TAKE THAT AWAY FROM US! *sobs* Rogues get no love. None.

After essentially jesting about it, I never once suggested that Knock is taking away from rogues, or making them useless. I advocate learning the skill to open locks, yes.

I am also not complaining about the shortcomings of being a rogue, believe it or not. I've played rogues rather a lot, I know they are squishy little things. It's just one of those things I accept with playing the class.

My primary point, I suppose, is that if you are having to deal with limitations on your character... well... I have no sympathy. Every character should have limitations.

For the record, rather than doing anything with the knock spell, why do we not simply position for the idea that maybe dungeon bosses shouldn't be behind impossible doors? Have a mob drop a key or something.

[sonuvalich]

And if your playing a wizard and complaining that you cannot unlock a lock, might be time to find a new hobby.

Wizards have a rich heritage of opening locks, from Gandalf to Harry Potter. Why is it so upsetting to you that wizards can manipulate simple locks with a spell? I am not trying to incite you, I just cannot wrap my head around it. Knock is a transmutation spell, and to quote SRD

Transmutation spells change the properties of some creature, thing, or condition.

Opening a mundane lock is very much within the capabilities of a wizard, who with other 2nd level spells could make you invisible, use transposition spells, the stat boosts that everyone loves so much, mirror images, etc.

A really high level/Int wizard with great gear might have 8-9 2nd level spells, and even if they were all knocks that means he could open 8-9 doors per day, more if he had a wand which is rather costly to make (2500-3000 depending on appraise skill.) So if the wizard chooses to, he can open doors at a cost of useful spell slots or throw money at it. That is opposed to a rogue who can do it all day, every day, and maybe needs some tools once in awhile. If the door/chest is trapped, the wizard is SoL about it and will have to eat the trap. It is a class using one of its spells to try and be useful as opposed to a class using one of its skill abilities to be useful.

I don't want wizards to be able to do everything, but I would like my guy who can manipulate the fabric of reality to not be thwarted by a locked door. In PnP, I'd disintegrate the door or lock, but we don't have that sort of luxury here in Sundren.

The OP was about locked doors blocking content due to doors that can ONLY be opened with the open lock skill and I still agree that those doors are unfair to certain players. You want to fight the Emissary of Orcus with a group in Argyle but nobody can open doors? Then you cannot do it. That bothers me. You want to get more treasure in Whurest but nobody can open doors? Then you cannot get it. That is fine by me, missing out on extra loot is a far cry from missing out on content.

Hell, kill two birds with one stone. There was the thread a couple weeks ago about healers being extraneous. Give doors infinite traps and the Spittlefist treatment. You can eventually beat them down and unlock them, but you're going to need a medic to heal you through all the damage you will take getting it open.

[dangotgam]

You're confusing complaining with pointing out hypocrisy. There is a reason I ended my previous post with, "Sarcasm is my New Years resolution."

I'll drop the sarcasm and lay it out plainly for you. Poorly built rogues complaining about mechanics are no better than the poorly played wizards who complain that spells are too nerfed, or that fighter types have too many magic items, etc. Both classes are just fine, and an adjustment to the Knock spell isn't going to tip the scales in any way.

What I laugh at are those who fear that a buff to the Knock spell is suddenly going to make rogues useless, unplayable, whatever. To me, that just a failure in not using the system in place, and instead relying on the forum complaining you're talking about to enact change.

Playing a rogue isn't that difficult. You just have to know what you're doing. Just like playing a Wizard.

[cmosier]

Yeah, by the same token, if your Rogue feels useless without being the sole provider of the ability to open locks, you're doing it wrong.

And if your playing a wizard and complaining that you cannot unlock a lock, might be time to find a new hobby.

Basically: If your rogue isn't pulling their weight, they've made a choice to get there. Not joining a faction, building more for RP, not knowing how absurd UMD is, or playing their class poorly.

Take your pick, because Rogue isn't inherently lacking.

This is a broad statement. A rogue pulls their weight by unlocking doors, disarming traps, doing general rogue stuff. Of course, all the other Rogue players on the server could indeed just not know what their doing.

[Fury]

I feel the Rogue Hate. It is palpable.

For the record, my argument is not at all about how Knock is stealing a rogue's thunder. It's the attitude of some that seems to be "But I should be able to do everything", while at the same time admonishing others, and saying they apparently suck at playing and/or building a character because of limitations the builder/player placed on themselves by choosing their class and/or build.

It's a two way street. If you build a power build, then you need to expect there to be certain sacrifices you have to make as well. Get over it.

[Elusa]

He also has perform if I recall correctly, so go figure.

[sonuvalich]

*Shrug* Andelain has invested some points into the Open Lock skill. If he can do it, then so can you!

It just dawned on me how wrong it is for a paladin to know how to B&E, I call shenanigans sir!

[Valhalla]

Rogues aren't inherently bad at PvE. A rogue in faction gear, built for combat, can do just fine. A rogue with HiPS (through whatever means) plays a lot like the now-improved rangers - high DPS, minimal survivability.

Yeah, soloing is a bitch, but soloing is a bitch for a lot of people, and its more fun to party anyway. Especially with UMD as a class skill, no rogue has any excuse why they wouldn't have at least 10 UMD and wands of pretty much every survivability spell around - Shield, Shield of Faith, Death Ward, Mirror's Image, Displacement, etc. You have plenty of tools to increase your survivability - even non-faction rogues - if you just use them. Not everyone can be a fighter and be awesome at all things always without help, so use the crutch you were given.

Basically: If your rogue isn't pulling their weight, they've made a choice to get there. Not joining a faction, building more for RP, not knowing how absurd UMD is, or playing their class poorly.

Take your pick, because Rogue isn't inherently lacking.

[dangotgam]

Yeah, by the same token, if your Rogue feels useless without being the sole provider of the ability to open locks, you're doing it wrong.

I agree, though, in that Pathfinder Knock is a good balance.

[Lothoir]

You don't have to stealth all the time, especially with HiPS. Just let the tanks draw aggro and run behind someone for flanking damage. Use archery to initiate, a few monsters will peel from the tanks and go for you. Once they are in between you and a tank, HiPS and they'll turn to attack a fighter. Then stab-stab-stab.

[Fury]

I say give all rogues stealth at full speed, but the will never happen.

Oh sweet gods, THIS.

It doesn't even have to be full speed. Just a feat that can boost the speed. I have to stay stealthed to avoid that unfortunate condition known as "death", for the most part- but by the time I reach the fight, it's LONG over. I love playing a rogue. Rogues are absolutely divinely fun. But when we go do a dungeon, it's literally a case where the people involved need to have a pre-dungeon meeting to agree on whether or not the Rogue will get to play in the adventurer games.

Open all the damn locks you want. Open all the locks. Disarm the damn traps. Just put in a feat, even with pre-reqs, that give Rogues a chance to move a little faster while stealthed. (I would say the Shadow feat would make an excellent pre-req. Those who take that feat are obviously stealth oriented, so it just makes sense that they are comfortable enough in that state to move faster than normal)

Yes, I know this has been shot down, probably a million times. Because you, the devs, love the taste of Rogue-ish suffering, and salty, salty tears.

[cmosier]

My view point is there are already several places you cannot reasonably pass without a fighter type or really buffed out caster. What's the difference between really hard monsters and a locked door?

[gbbishop]

Rogues are much better now. Compared to even a few months ago.

The bottom line is there should not be a class specific "pass" to access areas on the server.

There can of course be special cases... Certain locks exist because areas are in development... are not to be developed, or any number of behind the scenes reasons.

We have established there are many ways to skin a cat, er open a locked door. All of these ways are feasible in RL or in PnP they are not in a PW. adding more ways to bypass locked doors does not reduce a rogues chance to shine, players do that already but blitzing through levels. :P

I say give all rogues stealth at full speed, but the will never happen.