Suggested Master of Many Forms changes.

[Torgar]

Also, as a note, Samurai were mechanically just fine as a class. Played one, worked awesome. There were members of the staff that did not like the IDEA of a samurai, and so it was decided to remove it for the same reason that neverwinter nine and Harper agent were removed, instead of renaming them and keeping them as is. The only thing that did not work was the mass intimidating stare, that was it. Otherwise, was a STR based two weapon fighter with full plate proficiency. That is mechanically bad ass.

[Phantom Lamb]

Note that the shapes have been buffed once already as of a year ago, and they still are not a very strong class.

I believe the problem lies in that they are a pure melee PRC that can't compete with other pure melee classes. If this is the direction of the PRC, there are a number of quick, easy things that could help the class out tremendously: weapon focus creature weapon, improved crit creature weapon, high BAB (since there are no spells as you progress), and maybe something like increasing speed boost the way a monk gets it. None of these should be hard to implement if you want quick solutions.

On the other hand, if you want the class to not be purely melee, I think half spell progression would be pretty adequate in making it good.

[Elusa]

Tending to agree with Phantom Lamb. Bonus feats like those would go a long way. Trying to balance the forms is more effort than it's worth, and spell progression seems like an act of desperation.

[Torgar]

Considering the druid spell list does not get anything to really capitalize on having a high BAB, I'm in favor of the class gaining such if that was a way to help balance it a little. But, I'm also in favor of the MoMF people taking a few rogue levels, maxing bluff, and being the servers most powerful spies ever.

[wangxiuming]

I love MoMF as spies. Sadly, the 5 druid requirement isn't really conducive to that. I think I read somewhere that PnP Shifters just needed access to a polymorph spell - i.e., arcane casters and Rangers could unlock MoMF as well. I could very well be wrong! But, I thought that would be cool.

[Elusa]

From Complete Adventurer:

Requirements
Feats: Alertness , Endurance
Special: Wild shape class feature.

Compare to Sundren's requirements:

Skills: Knowledge: Nature 8 ranks, Knowledge: The Planes 4 ranks.
Feats: Adaptability, Alertness, Great Fortitude.
Special: Wild Shape Class feature

Might want to at the very least scale back those requirements for an underpowered PrC.

[KingArthur]

Interesting. I'm unsure about the coding angles or if there's even a DEV who'd have the time to undertake doing all the necessary featy stuff and go through and rebalance every single creature.

Sorry to necro a bit, but I am capable of editing everything about these monsters. I can give them all custom weapons, probably edit their ABs and further more edit their stats such as DR, Regen, Strength, Con, and concealment. Similar what was done to the frost/fire giant forms.

I posted a while back, and would still be interested in changing them for sundren. I am not the 'best' at determining what is 'balanced' or not. But if some DEV wants to give me some stats they deem acceptable, or talk to me what about you wish to change, i can do it.



EDIT: I can also attempt to give them custom spells, I know where they are 'stored' however, i am unfamiliar with sundren's 'ability' script (Since its custom).

I am willing to do 99% of the work here, I am just upset how everyone would like to see this PRC changed, and everyone seems to ignore the fact that I am willing, and able, to do it.
Here is an example, I turned the gargoyal into a 100% custom creature.


Help me, help you.

[Phantom Lamb]

Help me, help you.

Ashen - MoMF

Oh, is that what you were doing? :O

Capability isn't the issue here. We do have folks that are capable of editing the shapes, and they have been recently edited and improved.

I think the development team agrees that this PRC, among a few others, could be improved. Whether that means reducing pre-reqs, improving actual forms, etc. is what's not decided. It's the analysis that we need to do, and that can't come from external help.

And the other issue is, it is not a priority right now. We have many open items out there, including PRC improvement, but we need to tackle the more important ones first.

So, what you're offering just isn't what's needed currently. That's the cart before the horse. It needs to be strategically analyzed.

[KingArthur]

Oh, is that what you were doing? :O

Capability isn't the issue here. We do have folks that are capable of editing the shapes, and they have been recently edited and improved.

I think the development team agrees that this PRC, among a few others, could be improved. Whether that means reducing pre-reqs, improving actual forms, etc. is what's not decided. It's the analysis that we need to do, and that can't come from external help.

And the other issue is, it is not a priority right now. We have many open items out there, including PRC improvement, but we need to tackle the more important ones first.

So, what you're offering just isn't what's needed currently. That's the cart before the horse. It needs to be strategically analyzed.

Its a shame that people always bring up that I have, indeed, made a MoMF and that I would only be helping myself. Really is a shame people jump to selfish reasons, and I couldn't possibly just be trying to help a community. People aren't like that, are they? I made the character to check the problems with it. Personally, I don't play nwn2 much anymore, but the class I remember has been a point of discussion for a long time.

I only offered my help, and clearly people would rather see something sit stagnant then have anything done about it. I offered to do work, something that people usually don't offer for free in today's world.

To say that I wouldn't like to see the class be viable is a lie. I found the idea of it quite interesting, having played nwn1 and loved the shifter class. As for it not being a 'priority', I don't see anything other then opinion making things priority in this game.

At least I offered, and the offer will remain open, if someone so chooses to give me the stats they want on the forms.

[Phantom Lamb]

Most people who propose class changes do have an investment in seeing the change - including myself! But let's call a spade a spade man

It isn't being stagnant. We have the same expertise you're offering. We always appreciate people offering their time, but it needs to be reviewed and thought about strategically. We can't just toss you some stats and say, "go to town." And we can't free someone up to do that review until other priorities are done first.

[KingArthur]

Most people who propose class changes do have an investment in seeing the change - including myself! But let's call a spade a spade man

Well, like I said, the offer is open if they do not wish to do the work themselves.

[Lotus]

I only offered my help, and clearly people would rather see something sit stagnant then have anything done about it.

So that's what I've been doing all this time.

I offered to do work, something that people usually don't offer for free in today's world.

We've got about 10 people who are volunteering dozens of hours every week to maintain and update this PW, in addition to working full-time jobs, attending school full time, and/or managing families. These people are building areas, developing art assets, creating quests, developing encounter and loot tables, creating and modifying new factions, items, and stores, running plots in-game, responding to character requests, fixing bugs, resolving player disputes, enforcing server rules and policy, repairing/modifying/developing classes, adjusting weapon properties, creating new and modifying existing NPCs, upgrading races, and so on.

Not asking for your gratitude - like you said, you barely play NWN2 anymore, and we haven't been seeing you around here - but if you could not be totally obtuse, that'd be swell.

[gbbishop]

GEE ZIS!

Too drunks to comment.

[KingArthur]

Why must you be rude sir?

I never said there are not people working. There just are not people working on this task. It is one of the things I know how to do, and offered to help with it. I see no reason to throw insults around, especially calling me slow (Or, Obtuse as you would say). I have a job and go to school as well, and offered my free time to work on a project I know that is on a very long to-do list. I just wanted to help in a way I know how.

Again I see no reason to be rude to anyone, nor did I attempt to be rude.

MoMF is on the long list of projects to be taken up, the whole process of changing a class takes time. 2da editing, takes time. By removing the physical editing portion and allowing a team to simply balance (I use these terms lightly as I know balance is a beast in itself) the class, I thought I could be helpful.

I am not doubting your abilities to do any of this, but time is always a valuable commodity, and any aspect that could be sped up, I thought would be appreciated.

[Phantom Lamb]

It's all good, KA. Apologies if my comment was over the top. I was trying to tease you on the tone of your OP.

Bottom line is, it isn't as simple as us giving anyone a list and saying, "Thank you, please do XY and Z." We have to take the time to think about that list first, and we don't have the time to give toward that thought process at the moment. That's all!