Standard modifier for stealth

[Phantom Lamb]

What do you think about applying a standard modifier to stealth? Something like +5 to hide / +3 to move silently. Could be added to all characters, or to just the scripts if it isn't hard coded.

Why do I suggest this?

1) In the PNP world, you typically make one roll to see your stealth scores, and then they opponent gets one roll to see if they can spot or hear you. More rolls might be required if you move, vantage points change, pending on the DM running it.

But it's clear in NWN2 that this is not the case. From what I can see, stealth in NWN2 is checked on heartbeat. Check and check and check until discovery.

If you have two characters - the Hide skill of the first equaling the Spot skill of the second - they have a 50/50 shot of getting spotted in PNP. In NWN2, because they check every heartbeat, the odds approach 100% over time. For a stealther to be assured they won't get spotted, they must beat their opponents scores by TWENTY. With high spot gear out there, it isn't always possible. The way it's applied doesn't work well in a heartbeat check setting.

(I may be wrong about parts of this mechanism. I think Move Silent is only checked when moving, but that Hide is checked on heartbeat. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong! I'm learning to have thick skin, I swear.)

2) Also in a PNP setting, you get modifiers for partial concealment. Hiding in bushes, behind crates, mingling in thick crowds, these all grant bonuses to the stealther. A good stealther chooses his opportunities and isn't just standing out in the open. But as we know, that's not possible in NWN2 because you can't represent every possible object in the world. Heck, baked pathing areas mean you can't go to most of the places that have objects to partially conceal you.

So! Adding a standard bonus to everyone for hide and move silent would mitigate the problems from the mechanic in #1, and would partially replace the bonuses smart stealthers would naturally use in #2.

[Doubtful]

Stealth is such a dead horse topic, honestly I don't think there's really anything that can be done to even slightly fix it.

As you say you either have 100% stealth, or effectively 0%.

Adding a bonus wouldn't fix this issue, all we can really do is encourage good RP manners between people and wish for the day a game like this gets made with proper concealment and stealth mechanics.

[Farmboy2003]

even So, stealth still seems very powerful, WHEN you get 20+ ranks/modifier, so Im not sure why making it more powerful would mitigate any weaknesses?

[Elusa]

It might help low level characters for sneaking around mobs. At +20, you can still get seen by half the mobs.

[Jai_V]

Agreed. I can buff my stealth to upwards of +35, and I can still be seen by critters in areas much lower level than my character.

[Edit] Well, MS +35. Hide's still a respectable +33.

[Farmboy2003]

I think I've got just below 30 stealth modifier, or just above can't remember. I've got no issues with mobs seeing me.

[Elusa]

In my experience, +25-30 stops it, i.e. Alice when buffed. But she never runs into mid level mobs. The point is that for even low level mobs, the constant pinging makes it impossible for low level rogues to stealth past enemies. Same goes for sneaking past PCs. Unfortunately I'm 99% sure there's no way to change the pinging behavior of spot and listen.

I will say, move silently is annoying the way people react to it. They freak out upon hearing footsteps in a lively tavern or around the fireplace where there's 8 people that could have made a step.

[Aniril_Telin]

What I would suggest to handle this is a more subtle modification, most of the contested skills do not have auto success on a 20 roll. Granting a +10 for the critical success, I believe would be fair leaving the guaranteed spot only on the hider rolling a 1.

I have been on both sides of this being spotted by low level mobs on a high level sneaker and spotting/hearing a high level sneaker on a character with no spot/listen skills. The same setup for move silently and spot/listen.

[thaelis]

What I would suggest to handle this is a more subtle modification, most of the contested skills do not have auto success on a 20 roll. Granting a +10 for the critical success, I believe would be fair leaving the guaranteed spot only on the hider rolling a 1.

I have been on both sides of this being spotted by low level mobs on a high level sneaker and spotting/hearing a high level sneaker on a character with no spot/listen skills. The same setup for move silently and spot/listen.

So, if I'm understanding this right you have a 5% chance to auto-fail both your Hide & MS each round? And an enemy has a 5% chance to auto-succeed on Spot or Listen each round?

So, even with my Hide/MS skill of +50 in both skills I have a ~20% failure chance per round against an enemy with Spot/Listen +0?

Yeah, that kinda sucks....I've been wondering how I get spotted and ganked so much despite investing everything into stealth!

Either getting rid of the auto-fail or the auto-succeed would make a big difference. Maybe as AT says, make a roll of 20 count as 30, so if you've invested any ranks at all you spot them but otherwise won't, and a '1' by the sneaker would still result in auto-fail.

[Doubtful]

There's no critical success or failure involved in the skill checks, it's a verses thing.

The reason stealth sucks at low levels is that until you've got more than +20 in the skill there's always a chance that you can be spotted by a creature with 0 spot. You need to keep that +20 advantage at all times if you don't want to be spotted.

Having just +20 on your opposer means that eventually you will be spotted, having +21 means that you will never be spotted no matter what you do.

It's a shit system, made worse by an engine that handles stealth atrociously (but what do you expect considering the decrepitude of the engine and how long they flogged it for).

[Torgar]

Sorry, have to ring in here. Most of the pertinent people with hide/ms on the server don't have +30 or +40, they are sitting well above +60, usually more. I've had some of them even state they can, without much difficulty, hit +80 or more. And these are not epic characters. These are characters with the gear available to them, right now. So no, I don't think that giving a bonus to hide/MS would help, because they don't NEED help. Gear and feat wise, it's so skewed towards the benefit of the one hiding, it's almost pointless to try and spot people. The only people having trouble hiding are those not in a faction made to hide, which is why you see 30's on hide/ms. Those WITH factions that are geared for it are the one's that are simply not going to get spotted, period.

Sneaking is fine the way it is. In fact, I think there should be a script that disallows hiding when not near any sort of object that obscures sight after a few seconds. The number of people I have seen that just walk around, in plain sight, hiding without Hide in plain sight... It's not a small number. I've often talked to them, asking them to RP hiding better because you can't hide without cover or concealment unless you have hide in plain sight. Heck, if you use darkness as your concealment, people with Darkvision automatically see you per the PnP rules.

In conclusion: Stealth is fine, still skewed more towards the hider then the spotter. Leave as is or fix it to work like it should, do not strengthen it.

[Aniril_Telin]

There's no critical success or failure involved in the skill checks, it's a verses thing.

The reason stealth sucks at low levels is that until you've got more than +20 in the skill there's always a chance that you can be spotted by a creature with 0 spot. You need to keep that +20 advantage at all times if you don't want to be spotted.

Having just +20 on your opposer means that eventually you will be spotted, having +21 means that you will never be spotted no matter what you do.

It's a shit system, made worse by an engine that handles stealth atrociously (but what do you expect considering the decrepitude of the engine and how long they flogged it for).

Tested this for a while with a pc who had insufficient spot/listen to find Noril and the system appears to be working correctly, my old tests were massively dated however so I apologize for that.

There are several actions which will break stealth which would not break Invisibility for example, which is something for stealthers to be aware of.

[Bloodriki]

For one who can HiPS(Su), to retain concealment they must stay within a shadow. Darkvision only gives the ability to see in black and white in total darkness, within which so long as there was the slightest source of light (Like some of those freaky underdark spores) there would be still be shadows to hide in. When one with this ability steps on a shadow, I believe they become the shadow itself in that it drapes over them like a quilt.

It is ultimately up to the player to enforce the HiPS rules and regulate themselves as DM's can't always be watching. Flitting from shadow to shadow makes for good rp and character immersion. If you're skipping along the middle of a trail in hide you should probably rethink your character as you're obviously not taking it seriously. You should feel bad, too.

[Laurk]

So ive only heard one suggestion to fix stealth, but its so labor intenseive, no server will ever impliment it. Triggers.

The idea is, you put triggers in places where you shouldn't be able to hide, and where you should be able to hide really well with appropriate modifiers. It litterally means having to go through areas and lay down the triggers in deep shadowy spots, or in wide open spaces. If it was ever done, it would be cool since it would give a more organic feel to stealth were PCs would intuitivly seek better hiding spots and have to weigh the risk of moving through a wide open space to get there.

For examples, a stack of crates might have a +10 to stealth, whereas a doorway might have a -20, making it very risky. A lampost with a lit lamp might have a -40.

Also, ive seen the light spell offer +10 to spot on some servers.

Last my most unpopular opinion ever: HiPs is not magical hiding past the initial use. Its an instantanious supernatural effect that "hides" you. Consider the "hide" to be a verb in the name: Hide in Plain Sight. The moment its over, the hiding is 100% mundane. Basically this is a ninja smoke bomb. Or some kind of supernatural ability to have nearby shadows envelop you, giving you a moment where your foes line of sight is broken so you can go hide. Its not invisability, and once you're hiding you can be spotted just like any other stealther.

Also, does True Seeing spot stealthers on this server?

[Phantom Lamb]

I definitely like it when stealthers go the extra mile to hide in shadows, behind things, etc. And then throw up emotes to make it cool.

But I don't think you should throw those who don't under the bus, either. I used to do this, but there is a reality in a video game that you can't ignore - it is not good game design to represent everything in-game that would be there naturally. If area designers put down 100 citizens in a city block to represent traffic, imagine the lag and loading time consequences. Same goes with the tall grass and objects that a stealther would naturally be drawn toward using, but they can't get there because the area isn't baked for them to walk behind the object.

IMO it's best to give them a pass and realize they are stuck in an imperfect representation. Use your imagination - they are probably doing the same.