Official Paladin Code of Conduct

[cmosier]

I'm 34 now. This debate has been going on since I started gaming at 14. We solved it by playing Dark Sun. I liked that DM on the first page left it to the players to some degree. The early days of Sundren saw a quite a few fallen paladins. Citing any Forgotten Realms material as a source is problematic. It's changed and contradicted itself so many times.

[Phantom Lamb]

I love the source citing, gets my lawyer senses all a tingle. ^

Is that like a Spidey Sense? Or, uh, is something else tingling?

[LOLC2k]

Not killing him may not cause the paladin to fall, but working with him WILL, regardless of the fact they share the same deity. That IS black and white, and in every paladin code that they can NOT work with someone they know to be evil. Makes no mention of "Unless you share a deity" Paladin's of Helm and evil clerics of Helm can not work together, and the cleric should know enough about paladin's to know to stay the hell away from them, or risk being destroyed. A very large tenet of Helm is to root out any corruption from within his hierarchy and destroy it. If a paladin see's an evil cleric of Helm, and feels that the cleric is corrupting the faith away from it's path, then he's fully within his rights to root that cleric out. It's actually demanded by his god to do so. IT's why there is now a council of watchful eye's in charge of the overall faith, and not just one single individual as there was until the year 992 in faerun time.

So, for a paladin, it actually is a bit black and white, and they are one of the few people around who actually NEEDS to have instances of black and white.

So, in the end, Helm totally would support running a sword through the evil clerics chest if the paladin fully believed he was corrupting the faith.

That isn't black and white - that's a qualified statement. And again, it isn't even the only option said paladin had. Though I'm certain this argument will go in circles.. and I never claimed he should work with the evil in his church. I merely think sticking it with a sword is not their best method of combating evil members of a faith. And most paladins are not stupid, or shouldn't be, at least. They get things like diplomacy and sense motive on their skill list for a reason. Killing evil works well for monsters. It tends to not work as well for everyday social situations, and in fact can turn others to the path of evil in revenge for fallen loved ones.

That doesn't mean a paladin can't kill someone because of the reactions that may occur, but it does mean s/he must think their actions through rather than "oh man, evil, smite smite smite."

[Mournas]

I have solved this problem!

[kuscotopia]

What happens in AFK stays in AFK!

[Valhalla]

The vampire face next to Ruby made that picture for me. Bravo!

[Laurk]

So I had a Paladin last night sent by Lady Meriadoc to serve as a guardian to Abby and the Sanctuary. He was a paladin of Ilmater, and after discussing things, decided he couldn't help the Sanctuary because of his Paladin Code. It reminds me again of why I hate the one-size-fits-all paladin code. Abby is also lawful good as she follows the law of Ilmater to the letter. Why is it a Paladin of Ilmater cannot do this? To me, a Paladin's code should be custom to her diety. It should match her diety's dogma. Thats why I wrote the customised Paladin Code entry on page 1. It was denounced pretty quickly as pigeon holing paladins, but I believe it does exactly the opposite. It lets you play a Paladin who can actually follow the law of your God. To me, the idea that a Paladin of Ilmater cannot serve in a temple of Ilmater which does exactly what Ilmatari are supposed to be doing is weird. When I see a paladin of Ilmater, to me they are usually indistinguishable from a Paladin of Torm or Tyr. Thats why I can't stress enough that Paladins should be encouraged to write their own code of conduct based on their diety. Granted it should never let you stray from lawful good, and should always stay pretty close to the original save in places where your God's dogma is impossible to follow by the code. So, im going to repost what I believe makes a good Code of Conduct for paladins of Ilmater, because if the Paladin code makes it impossible for your to follow the Dogma of your god, there is a problem with the code.

For Ilmater, seeking to atone rather than destroy, helping those who hurt, no matter who they are, and helping the poor and downtrodden are the absolute paramount law. How can you be lawful good without doing these things if you serve Ilmater?

Ilmater:

Code of Conduct: A paladin of Ilmater must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act. Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authroity, though Ilmater's law is above all. She must act with compassion, mercy, and honesty (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, nor administering cruel methods of justice), help and heal all who are in need, no matter who they are. Knowing that Ilmater suffers all hurts, always seek to rehibiliate evil first, guiding it toward atonement, and use violence only when all else fails, or when faced with extreme cruelty or absolute evil. Protecting the weak and downtrodden are Paramount, to do so superceeds all other laws. Be prepared to sacrifice your life to defend the weak and end suffering.

Association: A paladin of Ilmater may only associate with or accomany evil in order to protect the innocent and weak from certain death or suffering, or when accompanying a healer of Ilmater in her work. A paladin of ilmater will accept aide from evil for the direct benifit of the poor, sick, or starving, provided there are no binding agreements and donations are given freely.

Multiclass: Freely as clerics, divine champions, divine disciples, and heirophants.

and since I know some Paldins of Helm now, maybe this will be food for thought for them:

Helm

Code of Conduct: A paladin of Helm must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act. Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authroity, though Helm's law is above all. She never abandone's her post, and acts with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth). Law and order are paramount, as is the oath of the watchman who protects her charge with her life. Never hear evil, nor work with, or benifit from it. It will seek to corrupt you and must be crushed swiftly and wholly. Be ever vigilant and make certain no crime goes unpunished with hard, yet fair justice. Never allow softness or mercy to interfier with the law, for when vigilance fails, choas reigns. Only small children may be shown lieniency for their minor infractions until such time as they are old enough to know better.

Association: A paladin of Helm may never travel with or accept aid from any known agent of evil. However she will not abandone her post or charge if evil is introduced into the group or position, though she may try to drive the evil out or destroy it whenever possible.

Multiclassing: Freely as fighters, clerics, divine champions, arcane devotees, and Purple Dragon Knights

Again these are NOT rules im proposing. Just RP ideas that might help people play Paladins closer to their diety rather than the cookie-cutter, one-size-fits-all Paladin of the players handbook. That kind of paladin isn't even supported by FR source and makes it all but impossible for gods of certain faiths to actually follow the tenents of their faith while adhering to the Paladin's code.

[Fuzziebunny]

I guess I don't understand why people can't decide for themselves how to play their own character. If they are to far outside their dogma the DM's can and do step in. Why do we need to estlibish ooc rules for this? Let IC stay IC.

[Laurk]

Again these are NOT rules im proposing. Just RP ideas that might help people play Paladins closer to their diety rather than the cookie-cutter, one-size-fits-all Paladin of the players handbook.

The reason I feel its important to post these "suggestions" is because most every paladin I encounter tries to follow the Paladin's code from the PH and considers it bad RP to tailor their paladin to their diety. These are only suggestions for RP that people can take or leave.

It is my hope that players will be able to customise their paladins without landing in hot water over it, or being told they aren't RPing their paladin correctly. Id like to think that if every paladin posts their own paladins code (if it differs from the PH) than it could make for some cool ideas and put a bit of variation and flavor into the class so that all paladins don't seem so simliar, no matter their god.

[[DM] Grinning Death]

I guess I don't understand why people can't decide for themselves how to play their own character. If they are to far outside their dogma the DM's can and do step in. Why do we need to estlibish ooc rules for this? Let IC stay IC.

Basically that. Leave the paladin lore alone. If we decide to make changes, we'll tell you.

[Doubtful]

That particular paladin may feel as he does, others may feel differently. RP. Yeah.

[prismaticcrow]

The problem is pacifism.

Abby is a wonderful character but her beliefs seem to suggest that Ilmater is a pacifistic god. He is not. He can have followers, priests, and even entire Sects dedicated to the idea of pacifism. This is perfectly fine. Ilmatarii can be pacifists. But they do not have to be.

He was quiet with a kind and gentle nature, generous, and good-spirited and even-tempered. Ilmater did not anger quickly, but when he did, he was fearsome in his wrath. He was greatly angered by extreme cruelty and atrocities, and at those who inflicted such suffering. He was particularly enraged by those who harmed or abused children and other young creatures. At such times, he set aside his doctrine of endurance and non-violence, and unleashed his full force to put an end to cruelty. Although his ravaged appearance or his righteous rage could scare children, Ilmater took great cares to reassure them and protect them. He treasured all children and young creatures in general.

This is a quote is from the Forgotten Realms wiki, and shows that Ilmater, himself, is not a pacifist. He might wish for others to strive to the ideal of pacifism, but he also appears to understand that pacifism must be set aside at times to save others from terrible suffering.

A paladin cannot be a pacifist. By vow and nature, a paladin must engage in aggressive acts to protect others from evil and suffering, especially a paladin of Ilmater.

Abby's doctrine is wonderful and inspiring, but it is simply unrealistic in the eyes of a paladin. Abby's ideals are a treasure that deserves consideration and respect, and that she will have from a paladin of Ilmater. But that paladin cannot, himself, take on that dogma. A paladin must be allowed to act in violence against those that would cause pain and suffering, or he is no paladin.

My character Asim (the paladin with whom Laurk is referring) will cherish Abby's sanctuary, and he will protect it as best he is able, but he cannot be asked to stand by while criminals and members of the Black Hand work in or around the sanctuary. To do so is to invite evil and potential suffering within a sanctuary that is supposed to alleviate suffering, and any paladin worth his vow will not allow that to happen, violently if necessary.

As the quote goes:

The only thing necessary for evil to triumph, is for good men to do nothing.

[Lotus]

Pacifists are nice and all, but yeah, boots to asses.

[ManUtd4Ever]

We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us... attributed to Richard Grenier.

[Laurk]

Well while this was in response a bit to Asim, it was more circumstancial. It really was more a general expression that I believe there is room for your god's dogma in the paladin code. Asim is absolutly fine making up his own mind, and as a paladin who leans toward the noble heart, the most violent of Ilmatari paladin orders, it makes sense he would take a more Tyran view of the code of conduct. I guess im just trying to say that I don't think every Ilmateri paladin should be barred from service to healers because of their pacifism. Infact, that would a bit counter to Ilmateri source. Just like Helmite paladins shouldn't have to abandone their post if evil is introduced into it which would be contrary to the Paladin code which forbids a paladin from associating or working with evil. A Helmite Paladin is like the ultimate honor guard who would "never" abandone his post. If he's suddenly assigned guard duty over something alongside an evil guard, he won't abandone his duty dispite the paladin's code.

The vow of pacifism Ilmateri take has nothing to do with a lack of understanding for the need for violence. A Paladin of Ilmater can serve and use violence in an Ilmateri temple. The differance is, they cannot tackle every pick pocket and low thief who walks in the door. Their primary purpose would be to defend against true threats such as murderers, rapists, & enemy combatants (black hand). They have to act as bodyguards, not police. This allows clerics to help atone and rehibilitate criminals through acts of kindness rather than the paladin moving to deliver "justice" on every law-breaker the moment they walk in the door.

Ilmater, much more so than Torm or Tyr puts "atonment" before "justice" and reserves violence for acts of absolute cruelty. There is no reason why a Paladin of Ilmater wouldn't allow clerics to atone low criminals and reserve violence for the sadistic hostile sort. I don't think it should violate the paladin code to RP in that respect. Granted there are various Ilmateri Paladin orders who have differant views on the subject, I just haven't really encountered any that seem to follow something other than the PH paladin's code.

Please understand, this isn't about Asim, just that I don't know if people know they can take a more Ilmateri stance as a paladin?

One one hand, I see Doubtful saying:

That particular paladin may feel as he does, others may feel differently. RP. Yeah.

On the other hand I see GD saying:

Basically that. Leave the paladin lore alone. If we decide to make changes, we'll tell you.

PH paladin lore makes a lot of Ilmater's dogma impossible for an Ilmateri Paladin to be able to carry out, such as "heal all who hurt, no matter who they are." PH Paladin lore make it impossible for a paladin to serve in a Sanctuary of Ilmater. But Doubtful makes it sound like these things are a player's choice to RP as they see fit. The reason I wrote any of this is to answer that question. Do players have the freedom to RP their paladins more in accordance with their God's dogma, or are they all stuck to the PH code?