Add Fast Stealth to rogue bonus feats.

[Lugwy]

You all realize you're just moving quickly while sneaking. It's hardly worth being a 10+ feat. Could somebody give some examples of how this would be game breaking?

Ever tried moving quickly and trying to keep quiet about it at the same time?

[Kitsunestume]

I'm well aware of the difference between P&P and NWN2, don't get me wrong. But even with a penalty, the ability to keep up with the party while remaining hidden has precident. Both rule-sets also do cover the portion of "Moving from cover to cover", particularly if an opponent is distracted for any reason:

Breaking Stealth: When you start your turn using Stealth, you can leave cover or concealment and remain unobserved as long as you succeed at a Stealth check and end your turn in cover or concealment.

Not to say people should violate the outcome of significant prior discussion and house-rules of the server, and while the radical idea of everyone being able to run while stealthed (at a -20 penalty) is unlikely, it can remain a vaigue hope.

Hope I don't come off as argumentative Dispater. My intent is to supply relevant info, as Cornuto brought P&P rules up. Figured I might give some context.

[Torgar]

Leave it as a low level rogue bonus feat, I'm fine with it.

On a side note, fix it so that, if you don't have HIPS, you CAN NOT STEALTH when away from some sort of cover. Make it so it mechanically can not be activated, because I've seen more then enough rogues/bards/monks and other hiders just stand still in the middle of the road, no cover, and act like they are hiding. If you don't have cover, and you dont' have concealment, then you CAN NOT HIDE without hide in plain sight, period.

So, yea. Rogues can hide and move fast, and everyone without hide in plain sight can't just randomly hide in the open. That would be awesome.

[Dispater]

Not argumentative at all. This is a discussion, we are all entitled to our opinions, and you are posing constructive questions. I don't expect everyone to agree with my madness.

If there were a -skill involved in using it, that is fine. The problem arises when anyone with 2 levels in rogue can run while stealth without restriction, no cover needed. In a PW this is a very large gain, so I feel it needs investment. Just like Rangers who need 13 levels to get it. Not something every level 3 sneak should start off with. Were this PnP? I'd be fine with it. It just doesn't translate well into a PW in my opinion.

[Mournas]

Could give it to shadow dancers ... at like level 7, Rogues or Assassins don't need it.

[Shadechild]

Couldn't there be a script that puts on expeditious retreat while stealthed or a likewise variant?

[thaelis]

Rogues are supposed to be a little better than rangers at stealth, I would think. Besides, I've four words for rangers: Hide in Plain Sight.

Yeah but on the other hand we can't sneak attack or death attack! And our HiPS only works outdoors. If it's available as a low level feat then every rogue will be able to make a stealth-running HiPSing death attacking scary monster : D

Edit: I'd fully support level 10+ getting it though, even if it's 100% speed

[Raksha]

So ... uh ... can we all agree on Rogue level 10+ talent here? It's earlier than Rangers get it, but discourages splashing for it.

[Cornuto]

So ... uh ... can we all agree on Rogue level 10+ talent here? It's earlier than Rangers get it, but discourages splashing for it.

Never compromise. Not even in the face of Armageddon.

Level 2 4 lyfe.

[Farmboy2003]

Rogues are supposed to be a little better than rangers at stealth, I would think. Besides, I've four words for rangers: Hide in Plain Sight.

They are? Since when? I haven't played pnp since 3.0, but in this game, rangers get feats that are only usable if you invest in the stealth skills, whereas the rogue can completely forgo stealth skills and not 'waste' any inherent class abilities. To me a rogue can choose to become a stealthy mofo, among so many niches his skillsets offer, but a rangers survivability depends on his ability to move unseen. A rogue CAN be stealthy, a ranger HAS to be stealthy. This is also nicely balanced with the fact that rogues get a powerful offensive bonus when stealthing and rangers do not.

Also, there has been numerous suggestion on giving the ranger a custom update/pathfinderization - which has all been shot down with "in due time". In the meantime though the rogue has been getting such an update and are a wicked nice class because of it. I'd strongly recommend fleshing out the niches of the sneaky classes before giving them all the same abilities - Making the classes stand out, giving the game more options than just "Heal, tank dpser LOL". This isn't 4ed.

[Cornuto]

To me a rogue can choose to become a stealthy mofo, among so many niches his skillsets offer, but a rangers survivability depends on his ability to move unseen.

If you think rangers have poor survivability, try leveling a rogue. Having played both, it's not even close as to which has less survivability outside of stealth. Admittedly, the last rogue I played was back when the server had a 15 cap and everything murdered you super easy.

A rogue CAN be stealthy, a ranger HAS to be stealthy. This is also nicely balanced with the fact that rogues get a powerful offensive bonus when stealthing and rangers do not.

I'm having a hard time parsing this argument. Most of rogues offense is stealth/flank dependant while a ranger's isn't therefore rogues don't need stealth?

Also, there has been numerous suggestion on giving the ranger a custom update/pathfinderization - which has all been shot down with "in due time". In the meantime though the rogue has been getting such an update and are a wicked nice class because of it.

One class being underpowered isn't a reason not to change another. It's like saying we shouldn't have made fighters better because swashbucklers suck. I agree that rangers need help, but I don't see that as a reason to avoid this change.

[cmosier]

Ever tried moving quickly and trying to keep quiet about it at the same time?

No. But I'm a sewer worker not a fantasy rogue. I tend to avoid physics arguments in fantasy role playing. Plus, Ninjas do it.

Yeah but on the other hand we can't sneak attack or death attack! And our HiPS only works outdoors. If it's available as a low level feat then every rogue will be able to make a stealth-running HiPSing death attacking scary monster : D

Edit: I'd fully support level 10+ getting it though, even if it's 100% speed

A level 20 fighter is a scary monster as well. I don't see a problem with a level 18 Ranger / 2 Rogue being able to do this. I'm not sure what level Rangers get Hide in Plain Sight.

So ... uh ... can we all agree on Rogue level 10+ talent here? It's earlier than Rangers get it, but discourages splashing for it.

No. Rogue love for life!! Level 2 all the way!

[Kitsunestume]

Perhaps if I may offer a median ground: Would it be possible to have two variants?
Have a basic-talent available for rogues, where they get to stealth at full speed, but take a penalty of some form to their skill checks, that upon reaching 10th level rogue is without penalty?
This doesn't stop people from grabbing fast stealth, but it takes more practice to do it with any actual benefit.

[edit]: Also, there appears to be some confusion that HiPS is more prevalent than it is. >.> The only way to obtain is is 4th level Shadowdancer, 8th level assassin, and 17th level ranger, at current. so you either already HAVE a pretty serious investment, or your limiting your options in other ways to do so.

[thaelis]

"Because they can do it in Pnp" doesn't seem like a very valid argument, since many of the classes have been nerfed or restricted for balance reasons precisely because this isn't Pnp.

[Cornuto]

[edit]: Also, there appears to be some confusion that HiPS is more prevalent than it is. >.> The only way to obtain is is 4th level Shadowdancer, 8th level assassin, and 13th level ranger, at current. so you either already HAVE a pretty serious investment, or your limiting your options in other ways to do so.

17th ranger.

What hypotheical build is causing balance concerns about 'dipping' into rogue? The main reason I dislike the 10th level requirement that at 10th level crippling strike is an almost must-have for rogues (unless you want to completely give up on Epic Precision.) So you're in reality pushing it to a level 12 pure rogue requirement -- and closing off rogues from major PRC build paths.