Final Stupid Suggestion! (Re:Magic)

[sonuvalich]

I like where Doubtful's head is at. Casters warp reality to their whims, they should be scary. In PnP it's generally no contest, because there are certain spells (such as fly/overland flight) that can keep casters at a safer distance from them angry man with the big sword, many spells are much more versatile (i.e. I shapechange into a humongous rust monster and eat your sword and armor, then a troll to regenerate a little health, then a dragon to eat you), and you get a few seconds to think about your next move in a turn-based combat system where everything isn't happening all at once, which is also nasty drawback of nwn2 because we're taking damage while trying to cast which generally doesn't happen in the good old tabletop version.

Don't misunderstand me, I am not complaining about wizards having it tough on Sundren. But Guard-of-Stars did sort of hit the nail on the head, if you fail a save against a fair number of our spells, you die the end. If you make the save, you probably win shortly thereafter. It can be very hit-or-miss, and luck plays a major role. I don't think the system can ever be fully balanced due to the mechanics of the game (if it went to turn based with a timer in combat, for example, that would be a huge boon to casters but that's not how NWN2 works) and Sundren has some house rules that further rein in casters (rest rules, IC reactions to people walking around with a dozen visible buffs on, etc.) so I get a little defensive when people start saying this spell is OP or change that spell.

Also, I want to go test this now, but freedom of movement should make you immune to most of the nastiness of Bigby's spell line. Also also, people have used rings of the ram on me, meaning the same nasty spells we have to earn 13-17 levels to get can be had in handy Green Lantern form for those with enough reputation in certain factions and some gold to blow. Also also also, having leveled both a wizard and some sword-and-board types it is no contest as to which is easier to level, so Doubtful's thought about the class being restricted are in some ways already a reality.

Just my 2 cp worth.

[KingArthur]

Well to be fair, class restricting wizards and such would be a bit much. Wouldn't we just end up with even more of what we have now, which is a fighters as far as the eye can see? Don't get me wrong, if you guys would restrict it and give wizards more power I would be happy as a pig in mud being more powerful- but as it stands we have like... 3-4 'active' wizards on the server, and 2 Thayan wizards, restricting it would probably just make it worst. Are people playing fighters because they are powerful? If you made wizards powerful would they jump boats and make a wizard? Perhaps people are playing classes for the wrong reason, then.

Now, what me and sonuvalich have been encountering a lot is, since fighters know they mechanically can 'jump' us and probably win. Which, lets be honest here, red wizards are suppose to be the scariest wizards out there. Like you said, are you going to mess with someone who can fly around, teleport, and turn your ink to blood? Let alone, probably scry your family and teleport them a nice fireball? I doubt that. However, we have nothing for them to be afraid of mechanically due to all their immunities given. You see what I am getting at? ICly we are scary, yes. Mechanically? Meh... We can sprint, do a few nasty tricks- mostly save or die stuff.

So, when people say 'nerf' the class that everyone can just jump as a fighter (Or anything that is combat ready) it gets a bit upsetting, and I know where sonuvalich is coming from myself. Fighters at the moment just see as buff bots, to be honest.

[Kitsunestume]

*quietly hammers out gear in the background that makes those combat-ready fighters less reliant on buff-bot mages*

[Poltergeist]

The fact of the matter is that a PC who is skilled at PvPing with a primary spellcaster will almost always win against an equally skilled nonspellcaster, even with our nerfs.

I spend so much time DMing and DEVing that my spellcasters don't even have particularly good gear, other than some old stuff that was removed from stores years ago, because I don't have the time to grind for rep or gold.

Yet, despite the fact that my spellcasters walk around essentially naked, gearwise, I have 0 problems dealing with other characters in PvP situations.

If we balance classes around the difficulties encountered by people who are unskilled at PvP, we drastically throw off any semblance of balance at the higher tiers of skill, to the point that no fighter or rogue, regardless of how good they are, would ever be able to defeat a wizard, druid, or cleric, except under the most exceptional of circumstances, which isn't very fun for anyone involved.

My advice to those of you who are struggling with PvP is to get on your character, open your spellbook, open a notebook, and start brainstorming.

• What metamagics will help?
• What are your strengths?
• What are your weaknesses?
• How do you mitigate your weaknesses while taking advantage of your strengths?

On top of that, consider the same about your opponents, how can you capitalize on their weaknesses, keeping in mind that the smart players will be attempting to mitigate their own weaknesses, while avoiding the aspects of their character that make them a threat?

There's a lot to consider, especially when there's such a wide variety of threats. Don't be prepared for every threat, you'll spread yourself so thin you won't be prepared for anything. Be prepared for the most likely ones.

When I was working on how I would be best prepared for PvP, I spent weeks talking with friends, and filling up pages of notebooks with ideas, spell descriptions, and threat analyses.

Consider doing the same.

[thaelis]

I think the biggest problem with magic, one that may be impossible to correct, is that all the best spells either end the fight, or do nothing at all. Say, enchantment spells.

It would be nice to see direct-damage elemental spells upgraded, and some of the lesser-used status spells get a debuff tacked onto them even if the save failed, making them still useful. However, this would all take a lot of work ... so yeah. >.<

Wise words... I agree that a lesser effect on failed save (even if only for 8th and 9th level spells) would make them feel less useless.

If the spell that usually makes you win with just one click is the only way to have to deal with fighters then, well, I'm sorry for you.

I agree 100% with the nerf to Bigby spells, being paralysed for 20 rounds with no save is not cool.

[sonuvalich]

They already did nerf them, the durations were drastically reduced. Which, as an aside, I have no problem with...that makes sense.

http://www.sundren.org/forum/showthread.php?t=19778

[Shadechild]

I think it'd be neat to see most of the Enchantment spells duration increased =) Like Dominate Person, Animal, Monster. Maybe Sleeps HD raised, just a little something to make Enchanters a little more viable =D

[Torgar]

I think the dominate spells could get a rework so that on a failed save, they work the same, but on the successful save, you do a stacking penalty to their will saves every time they succeed, because repeated magical attempts upon your psyche to take you over would eventually wear down even the strongest willed opponent.

So, like dominate person would be -2 every time to your will save for a minute if you saved, stacking. Then Dominate monster could be -4 to your will save for a minute. So, in a PVP scenario, you are still unlikely to enchant that druid or cleric or monk, but that fighter or rogue or barbarian? He might save once, maybe even twice, but his mental abilities aren't that advanced, eventually you could take him over.

Of course, if all you are doing is sitting there trying to take them over, that gives him a chance to introduce you to his best friend, mister sword-in-your-face. So, there's the balance there.

[Shadechild]

Well I was thinking more along the lines like in NWN1, where a dedicated Enchanter could Dominate a Monster and use it to help them level. (Since they wouldn't have much of a combat-stance on their opponents without it, maybe raise Dominates duration against NPC's to Minute/Level?.)

I know that if Sleeps HD was increased, or simply removed, it could prove useful on a larger scale =) But these are just ideas.

Aside from that, I have to agree that I don't have a lot of time to Grind for Gold or Rep myself, there are a lot of shinies to be had, but it requires dedication to get them... So I think the people who get those Purple or Red Gear kind of deserve them for the time invested.

[thaelis]

So, like dominate person would be -2 every time to your will save for a minute if you saved, stacking. Then Dominate monster could be -4 to your will save for a minute. So, in a PVP scenario, you are still unlikely to enchant that druid or cleric or monk, but that fighter or rogue or barbarian? He might save once, maybe even twice, but his mental abilities aren't that advanced, eventually you could take him over.

Actually sounds like a neat way to adapt the PnP system to an online RPG. Kudos for thinking outside the box! -4 penalty each time seems a bit high though :O

Another alternative solution for balancing the damaging offensive spells would simply be (yikes, I'm about to get so much negative rep) to give Missile storm a Reflex save. Maybe save at -5, similar to how Planar binding's save supposedly works.

Combined with what Torgar mentioned about beefing up enchants, curses etc to slowly chip away your resistance (or just restoring their original durations, with save per round/minute), and increasing the damage cap for a few other damaging spells you may actually see Wizards using lightning bolts and dominate monster *shock gasp horror*

Btw, I didn't leave the server....I decided I'd miss you guys way too much. So I'm back to being level 3 which is nice. I have the chance to run through all the new quests

[Bloodriki]

Well the real horror for a fighter/barb/rogue with that proposed scenario is being stuck in a bigby daze as a wizard/sorc chips away at your will save

[thaelis]

Well the real horror for a fighter/barb/rogue with that proposed scenario is being stuck in a bigby daze as a wizard/sorc chips away at your will save

Is that really more scary than a Bigby's followed by 5 missile storms (about 350 damage)? I'd think it's a lot less scary, since you have a chance at resisting it (DC's are not high...seriously, even the worst Will save character has at least a 25% chance to resist a 9th level spell, 45% with an easily purchased potion)

Also there's a feat Steadfast Resolve I think its called that lets you use your Con modifier for Will saves and makes you immune to death magic, which a Fighter would be crazy not to take. So basically even a powerbuilt Wis 8 fighter can still have an epic Will save ><

[LOLC2k]

Is that really more scary than a Bigby's followed by 5 missile storms (about 350 damage)? I'd think it's a lot less scary, since you have a chance at resisting it (DC's are not high...seriously, even the worst Will save character has at least a 25% chance to resist a 9th level spell, 45% with an easily purchased potion)

Also there's a feat Steadfast Resolve I think its called that lets you use your Con modifier for Will saves and makes you immune to death magic, which a Fighter would be crazy not to take. So basically even a powerbuilt Wis 8 fighter can still have an epic Will save ><

I don't really think giving missle swarm a save is the solution considering. Spellcasters have already been nerfbatted with durations, PLUS the rest restrctions. This game is PvE. PvP can happen, and should happen, but it isn't balanced. Attempting to balance things for PvP makes the PvE wonky. Casters are already nothing but buffbots while the melee owns everything, at all levels of the game (not counting under level 5 when you can spam rest).

[Akuma_Reiten_]

D&D in general has rarely been very well balanced for player vs player. 3.5 especially isn’t really suited for a fast paced video game.

The only time I've ever experienced any form of balanced player fighting is in a party vs party situation.


In a more ideal system you’d probably want things like very short term stuns, and better ability to lower saves in preparation for a bigger spell. But rebalancing spells to be pvp ready would take such an overhaul of the system it’s frankly not worth it.

[thaelis]

I don't really think giving missle swarm a save is the solution considering. Spellcasters have already been nerfbatted with durations, PLUS the rest restrctions. This game is PvE. PvP can happen, and should happen, but it isn't balanced. Attempting to balance things for PvP makes the PvE wonky. Casters are already nothing but buffbots while the melee owns everything, at all levels of the game (not counting under level 5 when you can spam rest).

Yeah, its one of the few really useful spells and I only suggested nerfing it in exchange for some other spells to be buffed a little, otherwise I guess fighting classes would feel like they're being emasculated.

I think it would be an interesting trade, since then there wouldn't be those scary 120 damage unsaveable missile storms that Fighters all like to cry over (I admit that is pretty cryworthy).

Also, its out of balance for PvE just as much as PvP mate. Freaking Colibrite knight can take 5 Sunbursts (an 8th level Reflex save vampire-killing spell) to the face and take 0 damage, but dies easily with 5 missile storms (6th level no save spell).