Mage Killer class

[Poltergeist]

First of all, there is no need for the misogyny in that statement. If you want to compare your character to a scared young child, compare them to a young scared child. By using girl, rather than boy, you're implying that girls are weaker than boys, which is sexist and wrong. Please don't do that again in the future.

Secondly, you chose your build. Being unable to fight one's way out a wet paper bag does not inherently mean one is a better roleplayer, which is a theme I find in a lot of posts complaining of 'powerbuilds'.

Additionally, PvP in itself is not the main reason people log in, although PvP is enjoyed by a large number of our playerbase. The reason people comment on PvP so often is because it one of the most effective unsupervised methods of conflict resolution in place, so its proper balance is extremely important to the entire server.

The reason people dislike passive RP, or campfire roleplay, is because it's essentially a cross between The Sims, and the office water cooler. Very little of IC significance comes out of it. The essence of great storytelling is conflict and conflict resolution. PvP is the most obvious vehicle for conflict resolution.

Sundren has the most open, relaxed view on PvP I have ever seen on a NWN server. No one can decline PvP OOC. In spite of that, or maybe because of it, we have EXTREMELY few PvP harassment problems. The high level paragons of good and evil go about attempting to win people to their side. All of the PvP harassment complaints I've seen have been low level PC's antagonizing champions of good/evil, near every time being told to stop, being offered RP outs, and then being attacked.

You are more than welcome to offer your experiences and insights into these discussions, but when your lack of experience in a certain circumstance is pointed out, backpedalling and saying you don't PvP, or you don't like PvP, is extremely poor form.

[Poltergeist]

More on topic:

I want to nix all spellcasting requirements for the class, but make it utilize any spellcasting the character may possess (it takes one to know one sort of things).

Current prereqs I'm looking at are 5 ranks in Spellcraft and Knowledge: Arcana, along with Iron Will. Maybe one more feat.

I'm mixed on whether it should be high or medium BAB.

I plan on doing the following passive (always on) ability: OnHit cumulative spell failure. The onhit percentage increase could be 1%, class level%, or follow some other progression. The spell failure would be imparted by ranged and melee weapons, as well as hostile spells cast.

Additionally, I want to give limited dispelling ability. An X/day ability that can be used as a free action, and the next single attack (weapon/spell) that hits will dispel the opponent. Spellcasters will gain an additional feat that will let them use prepared Dispels to power the ability in addition to the base times per day.

Finally, Spell Resistance. A passive SR of 11 + Class levels would be fine, with an X/day ability to boost it as a free action for a short period of time against the next single spell that's cast. If it sucessfully defends against a spell it either refreshes the Dispel ability by 1, or gives you back a prepared spell. Perhaps some way to burn an abjuration spell to give more uses per day. While the boost is in effect, it applies to ALL spells, friendly buffs/healing included.

I'll also likely give them a Detect Magic ability of some sort.

[KingArthur]

I feel as if I should have the right to defend myself.

First of all, there is no need for the misogyny in that statement.

Clearly this struck a string, so I am not going to comment on any of this, nor will I ever comment on a sex again because it is such a heated topic for no reason here.

Secondly, you chose your build. Being unable to fight one's way out a wet paper bag does not inherently mean one is a better roleplayer, which is a theme I find in a lot of posts complaining of 'powerbuilds'.

Mages can't really be powerbuilt. They are mages, they function off spells. The spells do not get stronger, or weaker. Mages take meta magic, and crafting, not much you can do wrong. Fighters are reliant on good builds to preform well.

Additionally, PvP in itself is not the main reason people log in, although PvP is enjoyed by a large number of our playerbase. The reason people comment on PvP so often is because it one of the most effective unsupervised methods of conflict resolution in place, so its proper balance is extremely important to the entire server.

Everyone I have met on the server, has stressed PvP the minute I spoke to them. This isn't a bad thing, but I do feel like the constant threat of getting 'ganked' when you are outnumbered is why most people don't log on. Noted, how both bane and legion players are lacking. That is my observation.

Sundren has the most open, relaxed view on PvP I have ever seen on a NWN server. No one can decline PvP OOC. In spite of that, or maybe because of it, we have EXTREMELY few PvP harassment problems.

I don't deny that, but I wouldn't deny more people focusing everything around a PvP encounter and less on PvE things. I have yet to have a PvE experience on sundren via a DM and have leveled twice to 20.

You are more than welcome to offer your experiences and insights into these discussions, but when your lack of experience in a certain circumstance is pointed out, backpedalling and saying you don't PvP, or you don't like PvP, is extremely poor form.

I was trying to be humble. Clearly it is something not recognized. If I wanted to kill some one, I would. I would buff up and use my spells to destroy them, simple as that. Rogeethree stated exactly what you do, against a fighter. I have played nwn2 for a few years, and have been in my fair share of PvP fights as a wizard. I have always main-ed one.

Clearly people don't want to hear the downsides to being a mage, because this entire thread is designing a class to destroy them.



As for the on topic, the best anti-mage is another mage. It seems your trying to design a antimage that would either be a sorc, or a wiz (melee based?) character that has the no downside (less spell progression? Which wouldn't be a problem because of the feat that gives you 4 spell progression. I would hardly call 9/10 spell progression a set back, and for all these free defensive and offensive abilities, why would you every go full sorc/wiz?)

[Poltergeist]

The class I wrote up has no spell progression, additionally the Practiced Spellcaster feat gives you 4 caster levels, not 4 levels of spell progression.

[Phantom Lamb]

I like that design Polt! Keep up the good work.

They are definitely all-in on casters. Wonder if one of their abilities might be better served as something more universal, like Knockdown?

[Lugwy]

That's a pretty cool concept, Polt. Possibly your extra feat would something related to being better able to ID/resist magics, such as Godsbane, Skill Focus: Spellcraft/Know:Arcana, or Magic Attuned?

If it were possible, I'd say to make the class full BaB if the character does not have arcane ability, and medium if they do. You may have to make two different prestiges to fit the differences, though.

Also feel like adding a little bit here.

The reason people dislike passive RP, or campfire roleplay, is because it's essentially a cross between The Sims, and the office water cooler. Very little of IC significance comes out of it. The essence of great storytelling is conflict and conflict resolution. PvP is the most obvious vehicle for conflict resolution.

There's a difference between storytelling and roleplaying/RP. Storytelling happens when you toss a character or characters in a situation and have them overcome obstacles to bring about a resolution. Roleplaying happens when you flesh out a character, giving them depth and making them more than just a Cliff's Notes cutout. Certainly nothing much of IC significance happened waaaaaaay back when Julia had a nice chat with Tigen, Daniel, and Julian, and other similar meetings with different characters, but it established her reception of them in future meetings, and a good deal of her characterization is a result of these casual, "water cooler" meetings that helped me flesh out beyond the barebones concept I had when I first created her.

Roleplaying can happen in a story, and vice versa, but don't mistake one for the other.

[Seheren]

I really like where you are taking it as well. I would say 100% medium BAB. Maybe allow a +1-3 saves vs Spells and leave as is. You get the spell failure, some measure of dispelling, the SR ability, and with your spell knowledge a small boost to your saves vs those spells.

I would also like to see the abilities you get being stat based. My initial idea was Charisma based as I used that as a modifier for a few things. This could also work as Wisdom or Con. To be fair I like having the stat as Charisma for more synergy as Paladin/BG in terms of divine abilities/saves. Makes me biased as I would likely use this class as one of those if I made one.

[Phantom Lamb]

I like anything that makes CON more valuable

[Ebannon]

Mage Killer: Surrender foul mage! I am your most dreaded nemsis, a class with mediocre fighting ability and many defenses against spells!

Mage: Mediocre fighting ability eh? *Etherealness*

Mage Killer: Egads! The class I am designed to kill has somehow rendered himself immune to all of my mediocre offensive capabilties.

Mage: *Gate*

Mage Killer: Oh dear.

[Seheren]

I would also say that looking back I would make a change to the SR ability I suggested.

SR 12+class level ((Max 22)) ability to raise by 10 for a number of rounds equal to one minute plus your CHA(CON/WIS/INT/whatever) modifier- 1x per day at 2nd, 2x per day 5th, 3xday 8th.

I also assume by its omission that you do not want to give any hard resistances (5/- magic) though I really like that as a late level perk. I don't see it as too powerful, as there are items with it out there for people to get. However, freeing a slot for such a useful resistance is cool. What I think may be a compromise is a feat? One that has requirements that may/may not include a certain number of Mage Hunter levels?

I think a lot of people look over the fact that pretty much every mob on Sundren has at least 1 sort of caster. Most have clerics and mages. This class is something that has RP and Mechanical benefits/use in events, pvp, and PvE. The PvP issue should be rather moot as it works as Paladin does vs. Evil.

A Paladin can have incredible advantages vs evil players if the build and play style is right. Put that character against a good aligned character and they aren't as good. This class will have an edge vs mages. However, it will be less effective vs everyone else for it. That is the tradeoff that I am looking for here. I want a Mage Hunter to have some serious advantages vs. mages, but have a hard time with a melee class.

I don't feel there is anything about this class that is gamebreaking in PvP. In fact I think despite it's specialization you can make as/more effective mage killers with current classes and some ingenuity. DPS is a big thing, and the class I suggested is supposed to focus on disabling.


Edit: Good point Ebannon... Zone of Revelation x/day anyone.

[Poltergeist]

In regards to High BAB vs Medium, keep in mind the fighter changes. They get more than just a high BAB now. They have weapon/armor training/mastery, along with access to greater specialization, and the other custom fighter feats. If you go Mage Killer you lose those, especially as the masteries are at the lvl 19/20.

Also, a d8 hit dice is 2 less hp per level than a fighter. In comparison to pure fighters you have less AC, less AB and damage, and less hit points.

As for etherealness: throwing weapons. give them some spell failure before they cast, and even if they get it off, you've zoned them because sticking around until it wears off (I'm thinking 1 IG hour, or rest) is a bad idea.

I'm with you on improved saves vs spells, and we can discuss that progression.

I am not a fan at all of magic DR. Divine and Magic DR shouldn't exist, they're supposed to be untyped damage that can't be resisted.

As for making abilities stat based, I'm having a hard time coming up with a way to determine it that fits all play styles. I'd like to see fighter/mage killers, spellcaster/magekillers, and even rogue/magekillers. I would ideally want to go with Charisma or Intelligence. Probably intelligence, since this class is based on careful study of arcane practices and neutralizing them. Also keep in mind that the Spell Shield increase will recharge the Dispel ability.

I could add Banishment to the OnHit dispel at a certain level.

[Phantom Lamb]

If you want to add something with a real impact on a wizard, make it On Hit: Humility.

But in seriousness, is there something they can do to counter a simple Invisibility?

Also, what if they had abilities that were charged when spells were cast at them, like charging a battery? Maybe for each spell cast at them, their saves increase by +2 for 60 seconds... and it can stack.

One final idea and then I'll shut up: Maybe they have a feat list they can pick from every few levels, which might include things like Evasion, Slippery Mind, and other decent mage-defeating feats? Favored Enemy: Wizard! heh

[KingArthur]

But in seriousness, is there something they can do to counter a simple Invisibility?

I do believe you can see invisible people if they cloak in front of you and you do not lose line of sight, you can hit them with a dispel when they stop moving. Or, you know, true sight.

[Cornuto]

something they can do to counter a simple Invisibility

Drinking a potion of see invisibility would do it, right?

[Phantom Lamb]

Fair enough I guess! Was thinking a class specialized in mage killing, it might have a built-in ability to defeat such a common escape method.