Mage Killer class

[Seheren]

Any cleric can have more saves and equal SR no problem. This just makes those saves and SR non dispellable. I think this class is powerful, but it won't be as good as a pure cleric or pure fighter vs non-mages. That is the point. Just as some classes are incredibly powerful against evil or undead. These classes are then much less effective against other enemies.

[Doubtful]

Rock paper lizard stone Spock.

Some classes are naturally better against some things than they are against others. Sure, a decent mage killer is going to rock against mages, but he's in for a world of poisening vs a fighter lizard.

[thaelis]

Rock paper lizard stone Spock.

Some classes are naturally better against some things than they are against others. Sure, a decent mage killer is going to rock against mages, but he's in for a world of poisening vs a fighter lizard.

Lol, I suppose Doubt has a point. If that is all they're gonna be good at I suppose they should be good at it. It just seems like standard Fighters and Rogues now are already pretty much wizard killers. Personally I wouldn't stand a chance against a fighter of equivalent level in a PvP.

And we can't grind dungeons, can't hurt golems or sundrite mutants, pretty much all we are good for is buffing fighters. (which I'm fine with, just please don't make it worse!!)

An upcoming FR novel:
Drizzt: "Elminster, where are those buffs, damn it! I'm taking damage!"
Elminster: "Right on it sir!"
Drizzt: *pats the old man on the head fondly* "Good boy. And don't forget greater magic weapon this time you 3000 year old little squirt, you think dual wielding in 3rd edition is easy?"
Elminster: "Yes sir! I mean...no sir!"
Drizzt: "Damn straight. Now, stay out of my way and don't go throwing any of those pesky area effect spells, you might hurt someone"

[roguethree]

Personally I wouldn't stand a chance against a fighter of equivalent level in a PvP.

Quickened IGMS --> Maximized IGMS
Any Will Save spell
Bigby's
Ray of Enfeeblement

[thaelis]

Quickened IGMS --> Maximized IGMS
Any Will Save spell
Bigby's
Ray of Enfeeblement

Heh, Ray of Enfeeblement I'd have to agree with. What an awesome 1st level spell!

But it all comes down to situation in the end. If I had all my wards in place and a Fighter decided they want to cut my head off, then yes I might stand a chance (though I still doubt it). But who walks around mirror imaged and stone-skinned all the time...

The fight would be over in round one with a critical hit 70+ dmg to my AC 12 ass

[roguethree]

I don't know why you'd be standing in melee range of someone who wants to cut your head off. You have so many escape-then-win tools that you shouldn't have any issue.

[KingArthur]

I don't know why you'd be standing in melee range of someone who wants to cut your head off. You have so many escape-then-win tools that you shouldn't have any issue.

It really is easier said then done, if you get hit while casting a spell with a a lot of damage, your chances of failing is high. Also, if I was fully buffed, yea, I might be able to kill a fighter. Unbuffed? reaction times are too slow to effectively fight some one who just runs in, auto attacks, knocks you down instantly.

EDIT: As some one who has played a lot of mages in NwN2, the grass is always greener on the other side. Sure, I can do like 120 magic damage in one spell, but you could crit me twice for 140, so what is the difference. Not to mention fighters pump out damage constantly, while casters are very bursty. (Sprinters, if you will). Thus, if you have some one sprint, it really makes the difference in PvP, because of the nature of it. I know for a fact, even if I was buffed, Julia, or some fighter equivalent would rock my world, even if i was buffed.

[Lugwy]

As some one who has played a lot of mages in NwN2, the grass is always greener on the other side. Sure, I can do like 120 magic damage in one spell, but you could crit me twice for 140, so what is the difference.

The difference is that that kind of damage is reliable; criticals aren't. Even a meatwall of HP can't shrug off 120 points of damage on call unless said meatwall was an immigrant from DDO, and maybe not even then.

[roguethree]

It really is easier said then done

For some, I suppose. I've played with plenty of wizards who could handle their business; maybe it's a practice thing?

[Phantom Lamb]

No need to make people feel badly about "video game skills." Let's stick to the topic please and not pick at scabs unnecessarily. Thanks-

[KingArthur]

There are different things that can happen.

Situation one, fully prepared
Your buffed, got like 26AC, 150 health, crap tons of % miss on hits, 10/20/30 DR, things are looking good, You open with bigbys, he gets knocked down. It fails? no big deal, cast another, or if you assume hes immune, just start damage attacks or will save things. Hell, he might not be able to see invis, so just go invis every other round, teleport away, and start again. This is all assuming you have the spells prepared, of course.

Situation two, you unbuffed, and you have some guy with 300+ Hp running at you with a +30-40 attack bonus, your ac is 12, and you have around 140 HP. He can kill you in one round, so you fire off a will save or bigbys and hope to god he doesn't make it because you are dead if you don't.

Situation 3, he attacks first, your unbuffed, and you die in one round. Because your first spell is inturrupted by a hail of attacks with high DC concentration checks, and he gets attacks of opportunity when you panic and try to run.

Problem is, buffs only last 20~ minutes at level 20. So, if you get stuck in any real RP before a fight you prepared for, they wear off. That is bad. Not to mention, preparing to a wizard's fullest is around... I dont know... 10 rounds? That is a full minute of preparing just for 19 minutes of hard-to-hit. I can get around 50AC in shape change form, but then I could only auto attack with a +19/+14 doing around 15-20 damage a hit. Crits around 30. Again, this lasts for 20 minutes.

I personally am horrible at PvP in Nwn2, just because how it works. I am not saying I was great at it in anyway shape or form. Just like its 'hit bigbys/will save' things or die for the wizard, its usually make the saves or die for the fighter/ what ever hes fighting.

When I go into PvP, I freeze and just hit buttons, I don't think practically or logically. (To be fair DnD system, In my opinion was never ment for PvP anyway) I am just not good under pressure. If I was a fighter, I don't have a choice in PvP, I just run in spamming knock downs and disarms and let the auto-attacks (With my High AB) do the work.

[Poltergeist]

No need to make people feel badly about "video game skills." Let's stick to the topic please and not pick at scabs unnecessarily. Thanks-

The topic at hand is a discussion of whether this class rework would be too unbalancing in PvP situations; player skill level in PvP is extremely relevant to the topic at hand.


ADDENDUM
@KingArthur: I understand, and empathize with you; I'm terrible in some video games as well. You either need to improve, or find another way to have fun. Maybe take up the great Thayan practice of being an arms dealer, and providing substantial discounts to people who will defend you in specific situations. Hire (Blackwood) bodyguards. Don't get involved in PvP directly, and instead manipulate things from behind the scene. Also consider investing in Quickened Spell, and having a prepared Dimension Door/Invis Potion/Etherealness scroll on you at all times, and hotbarred.

If we balance for PvP according to the least effective PvP strategies of one class, then the most effective ones of that same type vastly overshadow the most effective ones of another class.

[KingArthur]

What do you think I do? lol. My primary go to is Etherealness and run away like a little red girl. The lack of Thayans doesn't help my situation, nor does being below 20 and not power built, of course.

I am just arguing everyone stresses PvP like it is the main reason people log on. It actually is the one thing I hate about sundren, everyone is constantly buffed and prepared for conflict. And, if you are not, (aparently) god help you. I haven't been attacked once. I dunno about you gentlemen but I log on (Not much anymore) primarily for PvE (Adventuring in the hard dungeon as a buff bot), interaction with DMs (Fun events), and passive rp (Which for some reason people hate/got tired of).

As for the back on topic, as far as I was aware, monks are pretty much mage killers.

[roguethree]

Situation: Any

Invisibility. Create distance. Choice buffs (displacement, mirror image, extended haste, some kind of dr are sufficient). Quickened Bigby's Interposing Hand, Maximized Ray of Enfeeblement. Can he still run? Invis. Create distance. Avasculate. Power Word: Kill. Is he walking? Grease. Another grease. Another grease. He is your puppet. He does tricks for you. Most of them involve falling down.

monks are pretty much mage killers

They are designed to be. Rapid gap closing, built-in spell resistance, high touch AC.

[Lugwy]

IMO, I'd say it's not the mages so much as the divines that are problematic, but that's neither here nor there.

Seheren's updated post in the OP looks pretty good, though I wonder if an on-hit dispel proc at one of the later levels wouldn't be too gamebreaking.