Scale Rest Periods to Level

[sonuvalich]

Casting a simple extended mage armour spell & perhaps protection from evil (both level one spells) on a fighter is almost like making him invincible for the majority of encounters.

Three points on that:
1) Mage armor should not stack with the armor bonus from fullplate, at least by PnP rules, also normal mage armor sucks and improved is the way to go

2) Even if both those spells magically worked on a fighter it would give him a max of +8 AC against enemies of one alignment. That is not invincible, nor does it take in to account the spells needed to make his damage output more amazing and keep him alive (burning weapon, greater magic weapon, bull/cat/bear, haste, displacement, stone skin, elemental immunity, keen weapon, etc.) If I am in a group with a single fighter I have to buff, he probably gets about 1/3 of my spells dedicated solely to making him awesome, and then I blow another 1/3 on keeping myself alive due to the AI's rule of "attack the squishiest thing I can see!"

3) Why must it be the caster's job to sacrifice a bunch of slots to make the fighter better? I am not saying that as being against playing a support role in a group, but why must that be our only option? If a fighter would rather go archer and do more DPS nobody is going to argue, but if a caster would rather blow a lot of stuff up than buff people, everyone gets mad.

I do side with the people who want more rest areas in the game, in places you have to wade through fights to get to, just to start more fights (outside Ixis, the temple in Mossdale, etc.) IMHO, those are places adventurers might choose to camp "Hey, this cave is probably crawling with enemies, we shouldn't run in until we are as ready as possible. Maybe we'll get a random encounter, but better than going in at 1/2 tank and having our buffs fade or our healer run out of spells."

[Saulus]

^ People will just sit outside a dungeon and grind it if there's a rest zone near it.

There's no reason why a caster can't focus on offensive spells and forgo the buffs, especially if there's multiple casters.

I kind of find it funny that some of the comments people are making are basically exactly how we intended it to work, everything is pretty viable without anything being particularly OP'ed. Nothing will ever be perfect, but compared to the vanilla experience I think we are generations ahead.

Spawns have been nerfed. A lot. The intent is that you have to struggle on that last boss fight because it took effort to reach there in the first place. Risk vs reward.

[Thief Of Navarre]

imo as a caster I think if I have spells left by the end of a dungeon its far too easy. Like Saulus said Risk Vs Reward. You dont have to mince the boss every time you hit a dungeon, sometimes you have to retreat. There's no shame in that!

*edit* On Sonofalich's second point. I dont bother wasting buffing spells on myself; I turn into a giant tree or a bear or something; granted not every class can do that but there is a spell on almost everyone's spellbook that can! I remember a certain bald elven mage who used polymorph troll if he was caught in melee (its quite amazing how quickly your hitpoints recover while your goring things)

[ManUtd4Ever]

As far as spell durations go, what spells have been reduced to 1 min./level?

A separate forum post was started to address this list.

Wizards, clerics, and everything in between are ...meant to be party casters, and now that NWN2's artificial bonuses to casters have been removed, are forced to.

Please don't think me argumentative... but who / what determined that casters were meant to be "party casters?"

I ask because I have played a Sacred Fist on Sundren for while. He is neither a stand out as a caster nor monk, but the combination works well. When researching my build I came across "Sacred Fists are independent organizations found within many temples. Their ascetic members have turned their divine magic inward, bringing their bodies and wills into harmony."

I interrupted this to mean he uses his limited divine gifts on himself... to make him a more perfect weapon. This does not mean I did not assist others with buffs, but he certainly did not play the role of "party caster."

Cheers!

[Phantom Lamb]

Yeah, and spawns are continuing to be nerfed, too! I think you'll notice anything CR 13 or lower is pretty much a cake walk now. The only challenge I've run into while playtesting as a shieldless, hide wearing druid caster is Mossclaw. It's right after the level 5 resting rules expire, which is why I suggested this scalability. Instead of going from "rest any time" immediately to a 2 real life hour break, a slope of resting intervals that increased from level 6 to like level 11, where it leveled at two hours, would be my suggestion.

In any case! sounds like a no, but I'll check out some of those nerfed spell durations and see if we can bring them in line if the staff agrees.

RE: Sonuva, point #3
I don't think this is a Sundren thing. This is a 3.5 thing that I've never liked. Casters, when used to their best effectiveness, should a) provide routine buffs to the party, and b) save some big whammo spells for toughest encounters. Day-to-day fights, they don't offer much beyond the buffs they gave out previously.

Maybe I'll make some nifty rods that have Unlimited low level spells like Magic Missile (1), Lesser Orbs (1), etc. It certainly FEELS more magey to shoot those things than to shoot a crossbow. But, expect costs to be high

I'd love to see those feats that were mentioned, too, but not sure there's enough dev priority to make it happen.

[sonuvalich]

I don't know that I like the "casters should be out of spells by the end" mentality. We have spells or a crossbow. Scrolls and wands are pretty expensive to stock up on, especially compared to potions. So if we can only do very costly DPS or sit on our hands by the end of a dungeon, it is more of an "all or nothing" situation than a fighter who can still do and take some damage if his buffs fade.

Also, if we are empty by the boss fight, we are screwed if things respawned behind us on the way out.

These are all just opinions. It sounds like Saulus likes it the way it is and I'm not out to change his mind. I just get disgruntled that people treat casters like whiners and/or Engineers in Team Fortress 2. We are not your dispensers, godammit!

[Cornuto]

Has anyone with PnP experience ever tried playing with the reserve feats from complete mage?

I understand they're kind of meant to address the 'spells or crossbow *sadface*' feeling.

If so, what were your thoughts?

[Thief Of Navarre]

They work very well at low levels. Especially with multiclass characters that struggle at lower levels (the mystic theurge comes to mind)

*edit* Also note that they are free from spell failure & ignore SR. Making your Eldritch knight very happy if he can cast blindness unlimited times a day as long as he has a fourth circle darkness spell in reserve.. albeit at a crap DC

[Peridan]

A separate forum post was started to address this list.

Yes, it was. After, you'll notice, I asked.

Please don't think me argumentative... but who / what determined that casters were meant to be "party casters?"

I ask because I have played a Sacred Fist on Sundren for while. He is neither a stand out as a caster nor monk, but the combination works well. When researching my build I came across "Sacred Fists are independent organizations found within many temples. Their ascetic members have turned their divine magic inward, bringing their bodies and wills into harmony."

I [interpreted] this to mean he uses his limited divine gifts on himself... to make him a more perfect weapon. This does not mean I did not assist others with buffs, but he certainly did not play the role of "party caster.

I apologize. What I meant to say was, "Normal casters, and not those who take a specialized prestige class to enhance already capable martial abilities, are not meant to be able to solo dungeons."

The idea is that wizards and clerics (mostly clerics) were able to gain the abilities that far outstripped every other class without any investment besides just being a cleric.

Most other casters can't do this. Aren't supposed to be able to do this. But could, because NWN2 allowed them to rest whenever they wanted as opposed to praying for spells, and enhanced a few of their spell choices. Wizards were able to do something similar, and people took advantage of that fact.

I apologize (but not really) that casters have a tougher time getting through dungeons and leveling. But I really think it should be a chance to examine how they've played in the past, and how it might be possible to adapt to rules that make another portion of the server (anyone who isn't a caster) more valued and used as part of a team, rather than as a debatable tag along.

[Kitsunestume]

Maybe I'll make some nifty rods that have Unlimited low level spells like Magic Missile (1), Lesser Orbs (1), etc. It certainly FEELS more magey to shoot those things than to shoot a crossbow. But, expect costs to be high .

I like this! I'm one to prefer the idea that if you WANT to cast magic all the time, you need to invest into it: like storing it in stuff. I don't know what sort of future it might have, but Craft Rod or Craft Staff could be an effective solution.

[Phantom Lamb]

Most other casters can't do this. Aren't supposed to be able to do this. But could, because NWN2 allowed them to rest whenever they wanted as opposed to praying for spells, and enhanced a few of their spell choices. Wizards were able to do something similar, and people took advantage of that fact.

I apologize (but not really) that casters have a tougher time getting through dungeons and leveling. But I really think it should be a chance to examine how they've played in the past, and how it might be possible to adapt to rules that make another portion of the server (anyone who isn't a caster) more valued and used as part of a team, rather than as a debatable tag along.

Yeah you're right on the wizard abuse. A common method I see with lowbies: Memorize all Fireburst spells, run into a block of critters, and unleash hell. Get them before they get you. Rest and repeat... works great killing things 2 levels above you, at least to level 5.

I also see it abused when people spam Wall of Fire spells with slow zombies, then run out to rest. Personally, I wish there were ZERO rest zones (coupled with my prior suggestion) to eliminate abuse entirely... but I digress!...

It's too bad we didn't bang clerics harder than other casters, instead of throwing a blanket over all casters. They still have an easy time, whereas others are hurting. I don't know if you've played a caster for a long time since the change Peridan, which might weigh on your impressions...

[sonuvalich]

I like this! I'm one to prefer the idea that if you WANT to cast magic all the time, you need to invest into it: like storing it in stuff. I don't know what sort of future it might have, but Craft Rod or Craft Staff could be an effective solution.

I kinda like this idea. Something like a rod of missiles would have a PnP cost of around 18,000 gold for unlimited CL 9 magic missiles per day. So in Sundren money...like 100,000, but money well spent for being able to constantly pew pew 5 1d4 + 1 missiles once per round. That's 25 dmg maximum per round, relative to melees who can easily hit that much per attack and full attack/cleave/etc. And it boosts in game interaction and economy by making craft wand/rod/wonderous people the crack dealers for casters. So it's not game changing, but it allows us to still contribute instead of hiding invisible and mooching xp in the back.

[Cornuto]

I like this! I'm one to prefer the idea that if you WANT to cast magic all the time, you need to invest into it: like storing it in stuff. I don't know what sort of future it might have, but Craft Rod or Craft Staff could be an effective solution.

http://dndtools.eu/feats/categories/reserve/

[Thief Of Navarre]

If it was possible it would be very nice. Yet as you've said its time and effort and people to do it!

[gbbishop]

Yes for craft rod and staff! Oh an runes too! Spells with x/day placed on armor shield etc...