Suggestion:

[GodBeastX]

Okay, I gotta be honest, this is a funny thread to me. It's been posted many times in many incarnations of Sundren in many different ways to many different people.

It comes down to two things...

1. Emotions cause people to fail at logical perception of a problem no matter who you are.

2. Our human brains fill in information we do not have available which creates things like paranoia or assumptions.

These are two basic properties of a Human being. If you think you are above #1 then you are sadly mistaken. Positive emotions does help to alleviate problems, but frustrations will always add heat to a fire. Best way to handle a conflict is not always to try and solve it right when it happens.

If you think you are above #2, then you are extremely mistaken. The best way to test this part of a human brain is to listen to someone talk on the phone or be around them. You don't know the other side of the conversation but you automatically start to imagine what the other side is saying. That is how our mind works.

No matter how logical you think you are behaving in any situation, you may not be handling the situation effectively. The reasons we tell people to go to DMs is a few. Most problems are even solved before they have to escalate just because you voiced it to a DM before trying to correct it. It starts to become a non-issue. Some keep going but it can be helpful to have a moderator that was not involved in the scenario to weight things out.


Good guys vs Bad guys. Someone always gets hurt over it. Our characters, despite being IC, can sometimes become extensions of our own personalities. It's hard to disconnect from them for some people, and chances are you might be one of those people. You don't want to look weak, like a failure, or many other things.


Really the only thing that will truly fix this problem is people seriously sit down before any PVP at all and say "I am ready to lose." Someone has to lose IC'ly, and chances are it will be you. HOWEVER, nobody has to lose OOC in conflicts if we just chill out and realize we're all just trying to play and enjoy the game.

That's why when I lose at PVP I tend to compliment the other side. Even if it's just RP PVP.

"Hahah, good detective work finding out I'm a murderer!"

"I was like 'OH SHIT' when you hit me with that wail of banshee!"

It's funny how much tension disappears when people keep the air friendly.

And one thing I think badguys in particular SERIOUSLY need to frigging own up to that I can't beat over their head enough is:

VILLAINS LOSE!

If you play a villain you're signing up to be the loser one way or the other. You might survive, but your plans get thwarted, your factions get defeated, your assets get stolen, you get found out and live on the run or worse.

Don't scream METAGAME and cling to your secrets. They will most likely be found out and acted against eventually and just because this happens doesn't mean it's metagaming!

A friend of mine on another RP server did an experiment with this by dressing up as his faction in perfect armor and hanging out in a social place. He sorta looked like an NPC and didn't say anything, just stood their guarding.

He had the highest evidence against villains ever, because people were busting their secrets out and didn't realize it to him. He was amazed how many criminals are more than happy to speak about their criminal behavior.

Honestly, no villain is so secretive nobody will find you out. But what's the point in being a villain if you aren't found out? It's like being a dungeon full of monsters and the entrance is inaccessible. Tree falling in the woods and we're busy having a party.

Be an enjoyable villain and people will appreciate you.

And for the good guys. Be careful that your quest to bring good to the world doesn't bleed over so hard that you aren't willing the budge on anything just to let a villain have fun. You know they signed up to lose, you don't always have to put the nail in the coffin at that moment.

Anyway, the only person trying to screw you all over is me. So just blame me if things go wrong

[Peridan]

And one thing I think badguys in particular SERIOUSLY need to frigging own up to that I can't beat over their head enough is:

VILLAINS LOSE!

If you play a villain you're signing up to be the loser one way or the other. You might survive, but your plans get thwarted, your factions get defeated, your assets get stolen, you get found out and live on the run or worse.

Don't scream METAGAME and cling to your secrets. They will most likely be found out and acted against eventually and just because this happens doesn't mean it's metagaming!

I can't quite agree with you on this, GBX, but I see the ideology behind it. That being, "If you play a person who is evil, don't get angry if you get toasted and people cheer about it."

I can get behind that, I really can. However, I think a better one should be that everyone loses at some time. It would go a long way to helping people enjoy playing one side or another, rather than making one side bear the full brunt of the loss. It is just a game, but what kind of sadistic gamer continues to play if he continually, well, loses?

As far as the OP goes, I don't quite understand what the issue is, but there have been some parts that resonate with me. In particular GBX's post above that talks about getting angry that someone finds out your secrets and labels you a baddie, despite everything you've done to cover it up.

I realize that I have indulged in that kind of frustrated behavior recently myself, and as a result have felt more negative than I should have afterwards about it. As such, I have taken a step back to really think about it and have determined to conduct myself better as a player.

And, when all is said and done, I love you guys. Platonically, of course.

[Doubtful]

Frustrations happen to the best of us, things outside and inside the game world get on top of us and, as GBX has put far better than I can; we're only human.

There's a lot of good stuff in this thread, if we can all just be a little bit more excellent to each other then things'll carry on getting better and better. Be the person you want to be, and all that.



Life's an obscure, dangerous and lethal game. Let's not make it worse by making each others escapism unpleasant.

[Dragor]

Its not just the villians that need to learn to live with losing. I can reference the attitudes of the players with good aligned charachters as their mains when Ruby and Iosolde first got vampired (including my own attitude) as that brought the total number of vampire players to something around 1/3 to 1/2 of active players total at the time. Instead of rolling with the punches and trying to figure out how to deal with the problem IC most of us (including me) spent alot of energy in OOC ranting. This resulted in alot of undue negative emotion directed at two very good RPers (and generally nice people).

Also I can go back to the general complaining about Mirakus post when it was controlled by the BH

I harbored quite a bit of resentment because of the amount of attention that was given to the group of Dain/Tigen/Ruby/Bram/Das/etc. when I first started playing here. It took me well over a year to even bother to try to give some of them a chance and interact with some of their char's and with some of them as players. It took me even longer to start communicating with the DMs because of my own negative emotions.

I can effectivly say I wasted well over 1/3 of the time I've been playing on this server with negativity in what is actually a really fun environment filled with really fun people.

The biggest thing is to remember the charachter and the player are two seperate things. You have to keep that in mind not only whith others charachters but with your own as well. The bad things happening to your char, are not bad things happening to you, and the bad things you have your charachter do to other char's should not be done because you want to do those bad things to that char'. (I mean I've wanted to light almost all of caterpillers chars on fire but I've only done it to one (and it was actually for IC reasons so it doesn't count).

[Gamling]

VILLAINS LOSE!

If you play a villain you're signing up to be the loser one way or the other. You might survive, but your plans get thwarted, your factions get defeated, your assets get stolen, you get found out and live on the run or worse.

Don't scream METAGAME and cling to your secrets. They will most likely be found out and acted against eventually and just because this happens doesn't mean it's metagaming!

Going to have to voice my disagreement with this as well. Good/Evil/Neutral you're silly if you make a character with the intent to always be thwarted.

And it's even more sad if the person orchestrating the event has this kind of idealogy in mind.

And doubly sad when the heroes have this mind set, lose, and then complain that they didn't stop the big baddie.

I understand that as evil you're most likely going to lose because for the most part evil is proactive and good is reactive. Though I usually try to think outside of the scope of alignment versus alignment.

So while I'll agree that most of the time the "agitator" will be caught and killed for being a dick I think it's really discouraging to hear someone say that your whole purpose is to lose.

[GodBeastX]

I didn't clarify my villains lose statement after rereading.

What i meant to say is at the end of the story the bad guys lose. It's how stories go. You know why?

"And they lived happily ever after..."

^ That's why. Sauron loses. Skeletor loses. Decepticons get their butts kicked. Juggernaut is tossed around. Age of Apocalypse comes to an end. Etc etc. That's what I mean by Villains lose.

Good guys actually have the easiest job in the world. Make sure errbody ends the story as happy as they can be. It's dangerous, but it's pretty straight forward.

Villains don't have it easy like that, and you're signing up for the antagonist role in the story. That means one day you're probably going to lose in the plot if Sundren were to survive long enough for a last plot. The writers of Forgottens Realms put it best in one of their books when they pointed out why there's way more good aligned gods than evil gods. The balance of power is even tipped in goods favor.

So what I'm saying isn't everything you do will be epic fail, what I mean is in the long run, Bane isn't going to conquer the world as much as he'd like to believe he can. And even if he somehow managed, a world of evil conquering it would just turn on itself eventually or spring up a resistance that would eventually overthrow it... sort of like rebels and the empire.

The problem is that good guys are going to try to stop villains more than villains try to stop good guys. And that tends to lead to the negative feelings.

I also said "Villains" for a reason. Rolling evil doesn't make you a villain. Rolling "Villain" does. I love our villain players as much as our good ones. I'm just saying that eventually things balance out against for the next episode

[SeekerofKnowledge]

I think this covers it. With the wolf actually being able to get the sheep.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOSuh...eature=related

It can be tough to like somebody if you feel disheartened or cheated, but it's important to keep your heart and your mind open. I don't often win in player versus player situations, but I try to be cool about it when I do. Some of the best times I've had were the results of people royally kicking my butt and grinding it into the ground. For example, last night was boring until Kirk beat me down for hearing something I shouldn't have and left me bleeding in the shrubs. If you can't have fun being beaten up and rolled into the shrubs, then you aren't me.

[Torgar]

I harbored quite a bit of resentment because of the amount of attention that was given to the group of Dain/Tigen/Ruby/Bram/Das/etc. when I first started playing here.

Gonna be honest here, as Tigen (specifically) 95% of all the DM attention I got prior to this year was just Tigen getting the crap stomped out of him a lot. My friends can actually tell you I used to get really angry at the fact that every event I was in as Tigen, I would get singled out and stomped. It wasn't any of my other characters in events it happened to, just Tigen. Later, I just accepted he was gonna get beat up, and then I actually began to enjoy events again as Tigen.

That's beside the point, just wanted to point that out in reference to the above quote. My main point is this: It's not, in any way, hard to determine troll behavior. I can tell within the first sentence someone posts in chat whether or not they are trolling, because it's very easy to see it. On an RP server like ours, it's even easier.

Troll behavior signs:

1. Bumping into someone over and over repeatedly while they are roleplaying, trying to get them to react to it. Then, getting offended when they do.

2. Speaking OOC repeatedly, while other people are roleplaying, and using it to try and interupt or degrade them.

3. Using 21st century ways of speaking when your character used to speak normally, any time certain people show up just to irritate them into leaving.

4. Emoting what you are thinking. This isn't always an intentional form of trolling, but dear gods none of us are psychic, and it's extremely annoying to somehow hear your characters secret opinions. They are in his head, please keep them there. If you are emoting it, then I'm going to assume there's more information in there I am privy too, and that's not going to end well.

5. Constant OOC tells remarking how you roleplay your character is wrong. OR some action you took is wrong. Or telling them there will be severe IC consequences for them as soon as you get some DM on to do it. And going on about it over and over again. IC complaints going to OOC tells for half an hour is trolling, period.

6. Treating someone's RP like it is a joke, and then immediately roleplaying and demanding they treat your RP as something serious. Break 12345 mentioned this earlier, and I'm just reposting it here. If you can not treat other peoples RP with respect, you deserve none.

There are more, of course, but you all know what they are. Trolls reading this will point out specific points and say "No, that's not really trolling, you are completely wrong." Because they know I"m right. Every troll knows who they are, we all know who they are, and the staff knows who they are. If you are trolling, stop. Just stop. Whatever got up your butt and gave you such a negative opinion of this server you feel the need to troll, grow up. None of us who are serious about playing a game with one another likes you, we dont' care about you, and if you left tommorow we'd all be happier, and that's because of how you all act RIGHT NOW. Not before, NOW.

There is always going to be a limit to how long the people you troll are going to put up with your antics, so just dont' do it to begin with.

[ManUtd4Ever]

Gonna be honest here, as Tigen (specifically) 95% of all the DM attention I got prior to this year was just Tigen getting the crap stomped out of him a lot. My friends can actually tell you I used to get really angry at the fact that every event I was in as Tigen, I would get singled out and stomped. It wasn't any of my other characters in events it happened to, just Tigen. Later, I just accepted he was gonna get beat up, and then I actually began to enjoy events again as Tigen.

That's beside the point…

This point has been made before and is immortalized in your signature block. Your argument is Ad Misericordiam. The fact is you must first be in a DM event before you can be treated one way or the other, no matter how unjust you may believe it to be, which is the point [amount of attention not consequences of said attention once you have it] Dragor was making.

I harbored quite a bit of resentment because of the amount of attention that was given to the group of Dain/Tigen/Ruby/Bram/Das/etc. when I first started playing here. It took me well over a year to even bother to try to give some of them a chance and interact with some of their char's and with some of them as players. It took me even longer to start communicating with the DMs because of my own negative emotions.

I can effectively say I wasted well over 1/3 of the time I've been playing on this server with negativity in what is actually a really fun environment filled with really fun people…

This point really resonated with me. I’ve been on the server for only 3.5 years and I too can claim to have wasted at least a third of that time wallowing in my own self pity.

But it was hard not to get frustrated when one gets very little attention from the staff while a segment of the player population was showered with attention. In particular, I was very upset that a lot of people left this server early last year to play on Dalelands, only to return to the excellence that is Sundren and shortly thereafter advance to epic status.

What followed was me brooding, which made me only interact with a small portion of the server community. The amount of attention I received remained low, which according to the Betari Box model stemmed from my attitude/behavior. Like Dragor, I am communicating more since I stopped brooding. Accordingly, my enjoyment for the game has increased.

Cheers!

[Lollercide]

*Cracks knuckles.*

I am a professional troll. I don't ICly interrupt the flow of roleplay with psuedo-RP emotes, but I do love getting under people's skin with irony. I love irony because it is the best way to expose to a community the flaws of themselves and their players. I understand that it makes people double butthurt, and they won't enjoy pretendy funtimes with me, but the people who refuse RP with me because of this are likely the people that I do not want to roleplay with anyway, so everyone wins.

This time, I want to approach this thread a little less troll-like for the sake of productivity. I want to examine Torgar's post and add my two cents. Keep in mind that I am the most qualified; I am a profession troll, remember?

It's not, in any way, hard to determine troll behavior.

I disagree. Furthermore, what is easy for Torgar may not be for other players. This can be proven by the evidence I have of times where people think I am trolling when I am not and have no idea that I'm trolling when I am. Another great example for my point is a player Torgar mentions. This player has called a player a troll and ignored him when this player has NEVER trolled before. This means it is difficult for him to determine trolling.

I'm going to green-highlight Torgar's signs that I agree with and then explain why the other ones aren't (always) good signs. The yellow are circumstantial agreements and the red are straight up nos. There may be circumstances where you troll under red's conditions, but there are too many ifs and buts for them to be good signs.

Troll behavior signs:

1. Bumping into someone over and over repeatedly while they are roleplaying, trying to get them to react to it. Then, getting offended when they do.

2. Speaking OOC repeatedly, while other people are roleplaying, and using it to try and interupt or degrade them.

3. Using 21st century ways of speaking when your character used to speak normally, any time certain people show up just to irritate them into leaving.

There are many characters who use 21st century slang and are always 100% serious. In fact, the person break 12345 says left the server and never came back called me dude IC when they came back. Another good example of this is Carmella Brent.

I agree that if you abruptly switch from prim and proper English speaking paladin to a bro-speaking douchebag suddenly, you are most likely trolling.


4. Emoting what you are thinking. This isn't always an intentional form of trolling, but dear gods none of us are psychic, and it's extremely annoying to somehow hear your characters secret opinions. They are in his head, please keep them there. If you are emoting it, then I'm going to assume there's more information in there I am privy too, and that's not going to end well.

I disagree. If the sole purpose of the thought emote is to spite another character, then it is trolling. However, you do not need to know information ICly for the information to enrich the detail and depth of the world. If I emote, "Zack falls into a pensive thought of his homeland when hearing the familiar tune," it adds depth to my character and OOC food for thought to the players. There's no way any other character would know that he's thinking about his homeland, but randomly becoming pensive is boring.

5. Constant OOC tells remarking how you roleplay your character is wrong. OR some action you took is wrong. Or telling them there will be severe IC consequences for them as soon as you get some DM on to do it. And going on about it over and over again. IC complaints going to OOC tells for half an hour is trolling, period.

Sorry for using multiple colors, but the numbers weren't organized well.

For one, nobody should tell you how to roleplay your character. Anyone trying to dictate your pretendy funtimes is likely a douche and a troll.

Second, telling someone there will be severe IC consequences isn't necessarily a troll; it's about context. If you warn a fellow faction member about what happens when you betray factions, then I feel that is legitimate. However, if another character sleights you and you are trying to OOC intimidate them into not sleighting you or unsleighting you, then you are being a bad roleplayer. If you continuously do this, then you are likely trolling. Note: Bad roleplayer =/= troll.

For the last point, context is also crucial. For example, the player may perceive the problem as an OOC one while the second party sees it strictly as IC. This may cause enough friction to create complaining for up to thirty minutes. Also, setting an arbitrary time limit on when something is trolling or not is silly.

6. Treating someone's RP like it is a joke, and then immediately roleplaying and demanding they treat your RP as something serious. Break 12345 mentioned this earlier, and I'm just reposting it here. If you can not treat other peoples RP with respect, you deserve none.

I only highlighted the latter in red because there is some strange logic if you accept both the beginning and end. For example, if I do not treat player A with respect because he does not treat me with respect, then I ". . .can [sic] not treat other peoples RP with respect. . ."; therefore, I do not deserve respect. This means I must respect everyone's RP to deserve respect, include respecting the troll's RP; I don't think that is what Torgar intended.

There are more, of course, but you all know what they are. Trolls reading this will point out specific points and say "No, that's not really trolling, you are completely wrong." Because they know I"m right. Every troll knows who they are, we all know who they are, and the staff knows who they are.

This is the biggest fumble in the Torgar's post. In fact, this is why I started my reply. This part is so funny because it makes me think Torgar is trolling, which makes his post ironic since it is about trolling being blatant and easy to discover. I say it could be trolling because it is ripe with blatant logical fallacies and subtle insults. Outside of Torgar insisting people know who the trolls are when I have ample evidence they do not, Torgar is also using combination of circular reasoning and ad hominem (insults) arguments to defend his post.

The circular reasoning used is by including the definition of trolls to everyone who points out the flaws of his arguments; furthermore, he includes the definition of people who know he is right to the people who point out the flaws of his argument. The fact of the matter is that his argument's flaws have no bearing on whether or not I am a troll. In this case, I am a troll and he is also wrong.


At the end of the day the BEST way to know is to talk with the player. The worst case scenario is you disagree and instead go to a DM to resolve the issue. Most players are really cool and respect each other when they reach out to each other.

[and break 12345]

In fact, the person break 12345 says left the server and never came back called me dude IC when they came back.

For clarification to any readers - that makes two players that left. The one highlighted in my original post is a friend of mine, and ... still hasn't come back.

[Catastrophe]

Alright, thanks everyone for your input. I think what needs to be said has been said, so I am going to close this for now.

I hope everyone takes something positive from this thread, and will do their best to have lots of pretendy fun times and help everyone else have the same amount of fun.

Please be sure to report troll behavior, and be mindful of other people's feelings.

<3