Suggestion:

[Seheren]

I think what some people miss is that this is a game, and people want to have fun. If that becomes a problem for others they should say something nicely To the player. Instead people have become bitter and take out ooc frustration both ic and ooc on whole groups. This makes it fun for no one and is damaging to everyone.

[TheFarsight]

I Agree with Jhickey above, all it takes is a simple tell and usually that sorts things out. As the person could just be acting such (the Yo bro) because they are having a moment (retarded or not) where they may think that this might be funny, but are not really thinking how it may impact others or actually be seen as humorous. They are not thinking of that lovely diagram. So! As for the rest of this post, I agree Rich and thank you for getting up here and posting something about it.

I will have to send some maple syrup your way buddy.

[DM_BAMF]

This goes far beyond singular occasions in which a player is treading the OOC/IC line for the sake of comedy.

I've refrained from posting in this thread, because to me, after witnessing several events which I assume were the catalyst to this thread's creation, all I see is a huge joke.

And I'm less than amused by it.

When you want people to play nice with you, value their characters and role-play as much as you claim to value yours. Belittling them with the aforementioned "troll" attitude, only to then demand that they take all of your subsequent role-play as hardcore serious effort, is just..

I'll keep my reply to that.

[Seheren]

As response to break 12345. I think you and those players should look at the way you act before calling everyone trolls. Coming across someone in an area, and refusing to rp with them while they attempt to talk to you, while sending them tells about how their allies are trolls or their being a warlock is dumb an op... Seems kind of like a troll.

[The Butcher]

"A commiseration spiral occurs when two or more people who have been mildly put-out by a certain person's actions realize they share the same feelings, and rather than speaking to the offending person to try to resolve their differences, they instead proceed to complain to each other and reinforce their negative reactions until their opinion of that person is radically altered and exaggerated.

A simple mistake that could have been rectified by a gentle prod turns into a massive conspiracy theory about power plays and personal invectives. The commiseration spiral is a slippery slope indeed."

"Penelope: "Hey, I think Squeeb didn't even read my pose."
Harland: "Maybe not. Huh. Maybe he just skimmed it."
Penelope: "Or maybe he doesn't really like me."
Harland: "Or maybe he doesn't like ME."
Penelope: "You know, I bet he's pissed about that time Captain Humongous kissed Rocket Tits outside of the laundromat."
Harland: "Nobody understands our love."
Penelope: "I can't BELIEVE he'd be this petty about something like that! It was our choice to make with the characters, and who is he to throw it in our faces, like he's some RP god who doesn't even read poses?
Harland: "I'm so sick of this kind of bullshit! It's hurting the game, it is, and it's driving players away!"
Penelope: "I bet Johnny Chundernuts quit because of that crap, too!"
Harland: "Son of a bitch! He probably sits around at home, masturbating to poultry porn and trying to increase his power on the game! You can't even talk to him anymore!"
Penelope: "I know! It's got to STOP, I'm TIRED of this kind of treatment!"
Squeeb: "Hey, Harland, it's your turn."
Penelope & Harland: "YOU RAPE DOGS AND STAB THE ELDERLY WITH RUSTY PIRATE SHIP ANCHORS!"
Squeeb: "... wh-what?"

I feel that more than half of the butthurt on the server would be solved by confronting the players. I would say approach DMs so they will confront the players, but that won't solve the problem; Most DMs are just as guilty of the previous as the players. However, every player and DM I have come across is reasonable and cool. If you take the first step in approaching them about a problem, then an easy resolution is certain.

A good example of this is me and Catastrophe. She was certain I always troll, and I was certain she was a metagaming robot designed by Lollercide himself, but we worked it out to the point where she would acknowledge my RP. We both realized we were not entirely right about each other, and it has been smooth sailing since.

[DM_BAMF]

"A commiseration spiral occurs when two or more people who have been mildly put-out by a certain person's actions realize they share the same feelings, and rather than speaking to the offending person to try to resolve their differences, they instead proceed to complain to each other and reinforce their negative reactions until their opinion of that person is radically altered and exaggerated.

A simple mistake that could have been rectified by a gentle prod turns into a massive conspiracy theory about power plays and personal invectives. The commiseration spiral is a slippery slope indeed."

Given the quotes you high-lighted, this is not appreciated.

If you believe a DM is targeting you, as a player and reinforcing a negative opinion of your characters--Take it to the staff. Do not post it on the forums like it's a casual addition to conversation.

[Cornuto]

Commiserating about how much we hate the dumb stuff that players do is pretty much the only compensation DM and staff get.

[The Butcher]

Given the quotes you high-lighted, this is not appreciated.

If you believe a DM is targeting you, as a player and reinforcing a negative opinion of your characters--Take it to the staff. Do not post it on the forums like it's a casual addition to conversation.

I'm sorry you do not appreciate it, BAMF. I assure you that I am not here to make you mad. If you want to talk to me about it, please feel free to send me a PM, and we can discuss it in length. Otherwise, my post was not directed at the DMs or you in particular; it's pure coincedence that the example I chose to highlight to explain a commiseration spiral and its dangers came from a DM. However, this is by no means the only example.

I changed the examples to make it feel more comfortable for you.

[and break 12345]

Discrediting a deep seated issue - that has already caused one new player to leave the server - by chalking it up to be just another case of that ol' 'commiseration spiral', and brushing it aside as a minor inconvenience, doesn't solve the problem. Mostly because that's not at all what is happening here - I, personally, have not been trolled by any offending parties or "Team Troll". I have, however, heard from many people that they just avoid certain players/characters because they troll regularly.

I feel that more than half of the butthurt on the server would be solved by confronting the players.

This is another issue that stems from the original problem - these actions are not accidental mistakes, or lack of communication between players. These are Out Of Characters antics being spun into In Character emotes/dialogue with the intent to make the reciever look like a fool. Players should not be expected to have to confront other players through green text on a roleplay server to avoid being trolled.

Players shouldn't have to worry if the character they're interacting with is in 'troll mode' or has decided to 'serious roleplay today'. You don't decide for the other player if you've decided to 'turn it off', because ... really? In the end, it's far simpler for the other party to just stop avoid the situation - physically (on screen) walk away. That result in and of itself, however, opens up a host of new problems.

As response to break 12345. I think you and those players should look at the way you act before calling everyone trolls. Coming across someone in an area, and refusing to rp with them while they attempt to talk to you, while sending them tells about how their allies are trolls or their being a warlock is dumb an op... Seems kind of like a troll.

A sidenote - Jules watched your warlock smoke a few lizards from retributive invisibility, and decided he didn't want anything to do it. All his actions were IC, and were emoted as such. He's a jerk. On an OOC note, the other player and I were on a time crunch, and you had stated you were leaving. We were entering. I shot you a tell about the aforementioned RetInvis (it being broken), and that devolved into us shooting the breeze about warlocks in general. Seeing as how the server was mostly empty, I didn't think you'd mind. Also, you kept replying with thorough answers that opened up more breeze-shooting. But - I apologize.

[The Butcher]

Discrediting a deep seated issue - that has already caused one new player to leave the server - by chalking it up to be just another case of that ol' 'commiseration spiral', and brushing it aside as a minor inconvenience, doesn't solve the problem. Mostly because that's not at all what is happening here.

This is another issue that stems from the original problem - these actions are not accidental mistakes, or lack of communication between players. These are Out Of Characters antics being spun into In Character emotes/dialogue with the intent to make the reciever look like a fool. Players should not be expected to have to confront other players through green text on a roleplay server to avoid being trolled.

I'm not saying that the issue is without merit, nor am I saying that it should be dismissed. I am proposing a solution, which you feel is something players should not have to do. I agree.

However, I feel that more players are concerned about fixing the problem than with who has to fix it. From experience, if a player, such as Emiliana, feels that I am doing something wrong or believes I am acting incorrectly, she will nudge me, and I will respect the nudge. Is it her responsibility? Not really, but we both enjoy the end result.

[and break 12345]

I feel as though the solution was indicative in the actual text, and tied in with the original post.

I like the circle diagram, and I think it warrants some truth - When 'My Behavior' is to troll, then 'Your Attitude' is going to involve wanting nothing at all to do with me. And who could blame you?

The solution should not be with the offended party asking the offender to stop trolling.

The solution should be that the offender stops trolling.

[Cornuto]

^ Its possible for you both to be right this time.

Its everyone's responsibility to try not to ruin the enjoyment of those around you. When someone fails intentionally or unintentionally, its best to address it directly and politely instead of passive-agressively forming a hate-clique centered around the offending party.

If this doesn't work, bring it to the staff.

[Delexos]

I am actually glad that this thread has been responded to in the way it, so far, has been it goes to show that the community is very much aware of how attitudes and behaviours can and do effect the experience of others.

I had also hoped that this thread might bring to the surface issues that, at least I believe, are currently endemic in Sundren, although are perhaps not blazingly apparent for a large portion of the community.

As such, and with respects I shall make use of DM_BAMF's post here.

This goes far beyond singular occasions in which a player is treading the OOC/IC line for the sake of comedy.

I've refrained from posting in this thread, because to me, after witnessing several events which I assume were the catalyst to this thread's creation, all I see is a huge joke.

And I'm less than amused by it.

When you want people to play nice with you, value their characters and role-play as much as you claim to value yours. Belittling them with the aforementioned "troll" attitude, only to then demand that they take all of your subsequent role-play as hardcore serious effort, is just..

I'll keep my reply to that.

Firstly, there are no actual incidents in particular that caused my initial post, rather it was a product of what I perceived to be a slowly building and brooding mass of negative feelings which quite honestly have been building for a while, but due to the very nature of today's online culture tends to be dismissed directly out of hand or, even worse, mocked and ridiculed to the extent that no one talks about it for fear of making themselves a target. Again let me clarify that I am both surprised and extremely pleased that this thread has, so far, been received thoughtfully and with general restraint from the urge to take pot shots at individual people and situations, I had actually expected to be ridiculed for posting this and perhaps that is because I personally feel effected by the "Betari Box".

I am not however pleading innocence, or pretending that I am purely a victim, if anything I personally think that my own current situation is created by my own attitudes which effect those around me, to the point where characters will simply walk past my characters without even an attempt to interact with me.

The "Troll" attitude that BAMF points out is very much something I have resorted to in the past and I hold my hands up and admit to it freely, I know others who have done the same, the problem is that this attitude does not simply spring up out of nowhere. In my own experience, this attitude is a by product that is formed as a defensive mechanism to respond to a cocktail of negative feelings brought about by the way a person is treated and builds up over time.

There is a fear in this community that you simply cannot speak to the staff about anything, now it is not a fear shared by all. There are players in this community that have great relationships with the staff, this is often helped by staff members having player characters that are involved in similar factions, it helps create a sense of camaraderie and helps as an icebreaker between both player and dm, which is great.

However, you only have to look elsewhere on these forums to start seeing threads asking dm's how players should try and contact the staff in game without causing dm's to feel like they are being 'bugged'; to get a hint that the relationship between player and staff is not always so clearly defined.

There have also been times when a player finds out that a member of staff has referred to them as a 'whiner' or someone who 'demands attention', or perhaps even worse, that a member of staff has chosen not to run an event they had decided upon because they decided the event was not 'important' enough for them and so passed it down the line. Now let me say that this is not a personal attack against anyone, and none of those above situations are things that have been directed against me personally so I am not trying to take a stab at anyone, I am just wanting to show how things behind the scenes can and usually will filter down to the ears of people that perhaps should not hear about them.

When a player, who has dedicated time to the server hears things like this, how might one think they will respond? Ideally they would raise the issue with the staff to try and get it sorted out, but as I have stated before there is a culture that is prevalent on the internet as a whole which really is quite similar to the school yard, where those who feel 'bullied' fear to bring it to light because they believe that the only result would be further bullying, this can lead to a player quickly feeling devalued which effects the way they play, it can often lead to them lashing out and one form of this is the development of the attitude where "I just don't care", on the one hand the player still enjoys being part of the server community which is why they do not simply log out and leave Sundren well enough alone. Perhaps they feel they have devoted too much time and energies into the server to allow the negative opinion of others to force them away, I am sure there are many reasons why someone would chose to continue to maintain a presence in a community that they feel gives them no respect. But once a player reaches this threshold it is difficult not to develop a troll attitude.

I have personally felt myself, over the past couple of weeks, slowly slipping down this route, which is why I decided to finally air my dirty laundry. I personally apologise to any player on this server that might have encountered any of my characters and come away thinking "Man, that guy is a dick, he totally ruined my immersion". I have made a personal decision that I will do my utmost from this point on to think of the Betari Box as I play on the server, and actively encourage all of the community to send me a tell in game if at any point you feel that the actions I am portraying in game are adversely effecting your enjoyment of the server. There would be no point at all in starting this thread if I was not prepared to 'man up' and take active steps myself to correct my behaviour.

So there we have it, another long post full of ammunition, but hopefully also full of things to reflect upon, I'm pretty much laying myself bare here because I actually care about the Server, I've pretty much been around since Saulus first started it and I'm sorry if any of my actions have made the community here any less of the great place it rightly deserves to be.

Thank you for reading,
All the best,
Rich.

[The Butcher]

I feel as though the solution was indicative in the actual text, and tied in with the original post.



The solution should not be with the offended party asking the offender to stop trolling.

The solution should be that the offender stops trolling.

I agree with your point. However, as I said earlier, some players are more concerned about fixing the problem than who should fix it. Another big problem is trolling is not so easily defined. Some characters believe other characters are trolling when they are not. For example, I had players think GodBeastX was trolling with his NPC skeleton avatar of Myrkul (or whatever it was). This was cleared up with a few tells.

Another example is me and Catastraphe. She believed I "almost never troll," to which I implored her to bring all cases of my trolling to DMs. I did this because a lot of people think I do things I have never done, and these stories of things I have never done blow up to extraordinary tales. I personally enjoy it when people do this to me because it's funny, and even Cornuto has occasionally joined me in watching it happen. Regardless, we solved the issue with tells.

In the end, you may think a character is trolling, but that may simply be his RP. The responsibility of creating a fun and nice community is on everyone's shoulders, even if it isn't your fault case-by-case. If you cannot or do not wish to shoulder the responsibility, then DM intervention is best; however, being passive-aggressive and ignoring players has never been the best solution.

[The Butcher]

Its everyone's responsibility to try not to ruin the enjoyment of those around you. When someone fails intentionally or unintentionally, its best to address it directly and politely instead of passive-agressively forming a hate-clique centered around the offending party.

If this doesn't work, bring it to the staff.

I just read this. This summarizes everything I said and in a better way.