Dungeon Balancing

[Poltergeist]

Looking at the encounter, is it at all possible to make the loot inside the chests spawn the instant you use the key to unlock the door, or on the event of the Mind Flayer's death? I don't understand how loot scripting works, but I think that would solve your problem.

You're a good man, Ramza Xantheus. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

[Cornuto]

I have been following a few characters through the dungeon as Ramza, an epic level Red Wizard, but I cannot contribute save for buffs. I simply tag along to become an extra gold multiplier.

Looking at the encounter, is it at all possible to make the loot inside the chests spawn the instant you use the key to unlock the door, or on the event of the Mind Flayer's death? I don't understand how loot scripting works, but I think that would solve your problem.

I think it would be possible to have the gold and chest placables all set as unusable, then toggle them to usable for a set amount of time in the boss' ondeath script.

[The Butcher]

I think it would be possible to have the gold and chest placables all set as unusable, then toggle them to usable for a set amount of time in the boss' ondeath script.

That sounds neat! It is annoyingly unrewarding to run a tedious and difficult dungeon only to be rewarded with absolutely nothing. Furthermore, I agree with you that the loot table is underwhelming. Currently, I have found better equipment on my level 8 character in the Cartel caves than anyone in my party has from the mines. The sad thing is that the item I found in the Cartel caves is a +2 Natural AC amulet.

[roguethree]

Characters: Level 9 Tank fighter, level 9 2H fighter, level 9 Archer fighter, level 9 TWF

Area: Argyle exterior (zombies outside of the crypts)

Result: We killed them with 1 casualty (dicebag hate). It was a little tougher than before, but still manageable. This area certainly doesn't need toned down.

[Cornuto]

Alright as of next update killing the Whurest ruin boss should toggle the containers in the treasure room to useable. Closing a container toggles it back to unuseable after a 10 second delay -- so don't peek inside, close, and spend longer then 10 seconds haggling about who gets what.

I'm going to make a bunch of custom items that can be found in there. There seems to be some problem with the new loot tables since nobody seems to be getting any better loot after the big update, so this won't be live next update.

[Dragor]

A note on the Viridale (mossclaw meet), the Gnoll Matriarch still drops the chiefs head (which is (nearly) unremovable dead weight at this point)

[Cornuto]

I'll fix that tonight. I need to pull her out of the central fort and put her at the back of the Gnoll village where she belongs anyway.

[Dragor]

I'll fix that tonight. I need to pull her out of the central fort and put her at the back of the Gnoll village where she belongs anyway.

You might want to check the ogre chief (if he still exists) to make sure he isn't still dropping his head as well. They should really hold on to those things.

[Rhifox]

The following is a collection of experiences of leveling a new character from 3 to 14 in the post-Second Sundering world.

Dungeon:
Sharahan Hills + Caves

Party Composition (Number of people/Levels/Etc):
Necromancer 3-5 (me). Mainly leveled in a party with people ranging from Diviner 3-5 (Fezzik's alt), Rogue/Wizard 3-5 (Mournas' alt). Occasionally another Rogue/Wizard 4 (Farmboy's alt). Typically only 2 of us at a time in group, but occasionally have had 3.

Feedback:
The encounters were much weaker than they used to be. This is a good thing, since most people who hit Sharahan are soloers (as newbies often lack the connections to form groups). Sleep is even more effective here than it used to be. As long as you are a pure class you shouldn't have problem soloing here. Hybrid classes have a bit of trouble (due to lacking the melee AB and defensive spells to defend themselves), but once they hit 4 they typically are fine. The place is a cakewalk when in a group, even the chieftain and his entourage can be handled provided you don't rush in like a moron (like I did the first time when assuming the lack of quests meant there wouldn't be a chieftain <.<)

Experience is a bit on the low side. The place is easy enough to merit that low exp, sure, but it also makes leveling here feel like a bit of a slog. Grouping here is desired not for difficulty, but for the exp boost to make it less of a slog. From what I understand, the CR will be upped by 1 in the next update, so that should help.

The removal of the ear quest is one major issue in Sharahan's sluggishness. That 'free' 1000 exp from turning in 100 ears really helped low levels (both in exp and in gold), and I hope that some form of it will be restored soon.

Loot:
Sharahan actually has more green drops than any other dungeon I've tried so far. While the mobs drop almost nothing (their death drop rate seems lower than any other dungeon, and they only give 1 gold per kill), the plentiful chests and barrels often yield good gold and green quality items.


Dungeon:
Viridale Forest - Mossclaw Meet

Party Composition (Number of people/Levels/Etc):
Necromancer 5 (me), Diviner 4-5 (Fezzik's alt), Rogue/Wizard 4-5 (Mournas' alt), Cleric 4-5 (Chuckles_McChuck)

Feedback:
I love the new Mossclaw. It has large groups yet they're much easier than they used to be (no more scary mace-wielding supergnolls). This makes the exp flow much, much smoother than Sharahan. Each pack gives a ton of experience and is rather hectic without being too hard. The difficulty jump from Sharahan to Mossclaw is much better now. It's a bit harder, and more rewarding, without being super difficult.

Even after I hit 6th level and could no longer rest, it still felt like the place was doable. It made things a bit slower, but thankfully the campsite nearby in Viridale Forest was left as a rest area, so you can typically go a full circle, rest up at the campfire, and then continue on.

Soloing is one area where Mossclaw might be a bit tricky. In groups it's awesome, but with so many melee mobs, those without good melee AB will find it rather difficult here. In my groups (all non-melee classes), we were able to cover each other with ranged attacks (shooting at the mobs attacking other people so we could get maximum AB), but someone who is here solo won't be able to do that. Particularly solo casters who have low BAB, limited Str/Dex, and, if Dex-focused, no Weapon Finesse/Point Blank Shot to make up for it. Summons will help a lot for casters up until the point where they hit level 6 (and lose the ability to rest anywhere), but after that you have to rely on your crossbow... which won't work too well with so many melee mobs. Perhaps make a few more of the mobs ranged instead of melee? Such as only one or two melee mobs and the rest ranged? Ranged mobs have a bit more AB, but as melee mobs can flank (and sometimes sneak attack) it typically evens out in the end.

Solo fighters should have no problem regardless of the composition, they're beasts. Clerics too, I'd imagine (unless they're caster-clerics rather than melee-clerics, in which case they'd be in the same boat as wiz/sorcs). Solo rogues I'm unsure on, they lack the defensive abilities of either the casters or the fighters.

Loot:
Limited amount of barrels/chest means next to no green drops, but the body drop rate seemed significantly higher than Sharahan. Each pack dropped at least one or two (sometimes three) loot bags. Typically crafting loot.

Despite how much better Mossclaw is now, it and everything else in Viridale pales in comparison to...


Dungeon:
Mirakus Mines

Party Composition (Number of people/Levels/Etc):
Necromancer/Pale Master (me), every god-damn level from 6 to 14 and still kicking. Have grouped with probably half the server here at some point or another. Have been soloing it since 11.

Feedback:
Mirakus Mines is the new Argyle. And it makes old Argyle look difficult. The exp here is insane for the challenge it presents. From 6-10 or so, you'll probably need a group, but by 10 and above much of it is soloable.

First off, the good. It's a very well-designed dungeon. It lays out its encounters very, very well. By putting the difficult parts in out-of-the-way places, you allow people to pick and choose their difficulty level. If a group thinks they can take the manifestations/elder, they can try, but they aren't forced to fight them if they know they can't. By being able to bypass these difficult areas, you allow groups to continue to explore most of the dungeon and while only facing the challenges they know they can handle. The one problem here is that there's little incentive to do the difficult areas aside from a bit more exp. I recommend adding barrels/chests here that spawn green-quality loot, or make the manifestations/elder drop green-quality loot.

Additionally, the dungeon is paced very well, giving you respawns on your way up (and spawning those respawns in a different position on your 'return trip'), thus meaning you typically run the dungeon 'twice'... once on your way down and again on your way up.

Overall, very excellent design.

For the negatives... it's simply too awesome for leveling. The CR seems way too high for how easy it is. At 14 I'm still making 8 exp from the mutants, 20 from the hulks, and 48 from the elementals, despite having been soloing the whole thing since 11 and grouping since 6. At level 7-10 or so (about where the encounter difficulty seems to be at its most balanced), characters are making 100+ per green and 160-200 per blue.

I believe that Mirakus either needs to have its encounters tuned up for its CR, or have its CR reduced.

Loot:
Due to the high CR, the gold rate here is amazing for the levels farming it. I've made almost 30k from it over the last week of grinding it or so.

Plenty of crafting drops as well. Some scrolls and other miscellaneous loot. No barrels or chests so no green drops.

[Rhifox]

Dungeon:
Argyle Keep

Party Composition (Number of people/Levels/Etc):
Nec 5/Palemaster 7+ (me). Typically solo, but occasionally with a Monk 13 (Lorick).

Also, have tried it on Josirah (Con 5/Rog 3/Red 6/AT 1), typically with a fighter, blackguard, or cleric companion of levels 16 to 18.

Feedback:
The best description I can find for Argyle is: pitstop. Mirakus Mines are a superior leveling area. I have only gone to Argyle to kill the zombies outside the crypts while waiting for Mirakus to respawn. This gives me about 250 exp at 13 (and about 200 at 14).

The encounters are very difficult for their CR in comparison to the areas I’ve reviewed above. The risk-reward ratio jumps heavily towards risk. Doing Mirakus Mines gives me about 1000+ experience for one Rest. Argyle gives me about 200-250 experience for one Rest. Even when in a group, Argyle is still more or less inferior to Mirakus due to the risk-reward ratio. Argyle only becomes a decent grinding area when Mirakus mostly stops giving exp, otherwise there's no point in doing it instead of the mines.

The zombies are probably fine for their CR, they just aren't worth it in comparison to Mirakus.

Loot:
About the same as Mossclaw/Mirakus. Lots of crafting drops, nothing else of note. The bosses drop nothing.


*Edit*
After some further practicing and with some new spells, I've managed to cut down on the difficulty of the zombies to the point that I can pretty consistently solo (on my 14 nec/pm) the exterior and the first two crypts (don't want to try the Emissary while solo). So getting about 500 exp or so per Rest instead of 200. Typically exterior and one crypt, then Rest, then second crypt. I've also been trying the chapel. The chapel seems to give great experience without being insanely difficult like the villagers... the problem is of course the pathing. If the pathing here were fixed, it'd be a great spot to grind.

Despite being able to more reliably take on the zombies, I was doing this while walking over the corpses of the group that had come before me (3 corpses here), which shows that while it can be manageable, the difficulty jump from previous content is still rather large. It's also still inferior to Mirakus. Therefore it might still need to be adjusted a bit.

Also, moved summary of testing on Possessed Peasants to next post.

[Rhifox]

Okay, another update.

Dungeon:
Argyle Keep - Possessed Villagers

Party Composition (Number of people/Levels/Etc):
Nec 5/Palemaster 10. Solo.

Feedback:
With full buffs and Tenser's, peasants are not a problem. They spawn in groups of 3-4 while solo, which is easily doable, provided you make sure to take out the Mages first (they do the most damage and have a chance to dispel) and the scythe-wielders (who deal massive crits). The bosses (Smith and Bar-whatever) are no stronger than the blues, it seems, aside from having more health.

Big problem with the village isn't the mobs... it's the spawn rate when in a group. In groups it spawns as many as 8 or so per pack (with 2-3 blues) and simply overwhelm the tank with flanking+sneak attack (and the occasional dispel when they feel especially cruel). This likewise happens at zombies, btw. The group of three corpses I noticed earlier were surrounded by nearly 20 zombies (at least 4-5 blues) rather than the usual 6. I assume this is because of the dynamic spawn system, and results in a drastically increased difficulty based on the size of one's party. This is the first area I've seen this dynamic system in place (Mirakus, Sharahan, and I think Mossclaw have the same number of mobs regardless of group size).

I'm aware the mobs are getting nerfed in the next update. But if that nerf still doesn't help for groups, then I recommend looking into the spawn rate while in a group. The current spawn rates makes it so that the whole area is easier when solo, which doesn't sound right.

Loot:
Same old same old.

[Rhifox]

Dungeon:
Mossdale Border Area and Path

Party Composition (Number of people/Levels/Etc):
Necromancer 6/Palemaster 10. Solo.

Buffed with: Mage Armor, Shield, Protection from Evil, Cat's Grace, Enlarge Person, Mirror Image, Burning Blade, Greater Magic Weapon, Keen Weapon, Displacement, Haste, Greater Stoneskin, Greater Heroism, Draconic Might, Shadow Shield, Superior Resistance, Dragon Sight, Tenser's Transformation. "The Works". AC 37, +32/+27 AB.

Feedback:
Went in because I wanted to test just how difficult this area was at my level, to see if it would be a decent place to grind for a group of 16's. Didn't think I'd get very far solo, just wanted to see how far I could get.

Spawns were about 6-8 mobs or so. 3-4 or so 'gray' mobs, 2-3 greens, and 1-2 wolves. They ate through my Mirror Images and Stoneskins fairly rapidly, due to very rapid bow shots at range and dual-wielding in melee, though I did only prepare one spare Stoneskin and thus could have done better if I had prepared more. Was also lagging quite a bit, which caused me some issues. I was still able to clear the whole border area and two spawns in the paths area just fine.

Depending on if the spawns are the same for a group, then this would be a fine place to grind for a party of 16s, I think. I was chugging along pretty decently solo, with only the short-duration godmode of Tensers. A proper tank, fully buffed, would do a lot better due to much greater 'uptime'. However, if the dynamic spawns cause even more spawns to appear, then it'd be very difficult for a group.

Ended up dying, though only because I ran onto an epic fire trap while running away from a spawn after Tensers had worn off. DC 45, far higher than I could handle. Will have to prepare Elemental Immunity (Fire) next time, and hope that other traps don't have the different damage types.

Loot:
Didn't see any loot bags drop. I assume it has the same drop rates as the last few areas, however.

[Rhifox]

POST-UPDATE

Dungeon:
Argyle Keep, Zombies and Peasants

Party Composition (Number of people/Levels/Etc):
Necromancer 6/Palemaster 10 with Death Knight (Fighter 10/Undead 10) summon.

Buffed with:
(Self) Mage Armor, Shadow Shield, Mirror Image, Invisibility
(Pet) Mage Armor, Protection from Evil, Burning Blade, Greater Magic Weapon, Keen Weapon, Displacement, Haste, Stoneskin, Spiderskin, Greater Heroism, Draconic Might

Pet had 150 hp, 31 AC, +26/+21+16 AB, 1-10 +24 (Crit 17-20/x2) +4 Physical +1d6 Fire damage. Plus 50% Concealment and damage reduction.

Feedback:
Went in to test the area again after Saulus' update tonight, since this is an area that I knew was changed with the update.

Zombies seemed about the same as they were before, with the exception of the Emissary. Emissary no longer immediately dies upon being struck down. Like troll regeneration, he seems to require the finishing blow to be a cold iron strike. Without being struck by a cold iron weapon, he will eventually rise up with full health. Neat change.

Peasants on the other hand had very noticeable differences. Their AB was quite a lot lower. Hell, they are easier than the zombies now, in my opinion, while offering slightly more exp. Before the update, trying anything less than Tenser-godmode here would have been pointless for me. This time the only threat was the casters, and only because I couldn't tell my DK to attack them first and hadn't given him Energy Immunity to their fire spells. The scythe blues were much, much easier than before. In fact, too easy, because they like to use Power Attack/Combat Expertise which lowers their AB pretty heavily. Without Power Attack/Combat Expertise, the scythe blues have about 24 AB (compared to zombie blues who seem to still have 25-ish AB, and the green peasants who have up to 25/26).

Loot:
Loot rate seemed much higher on the peasants, and they dropped a lot of scrolls this time (alongside the typical crafting components). Zombies might be similar, but haven't noticed anything to specifically confirm that their loot has changed. Saw some crafting materials and spirits, that's it from them so far.




Dungeon:
Mossdale Forest Border and Path

Party Composition (Number of people/Levels/Etc):
Necromancer 6/Palemaster 10 with Death Knight (Fighter 10/Undead 10) summon.

Buffed with:
(Self) Mage Armor, Energy Immunity (Fire), Mirror Image, Superior Resistance, Invisibility
(Pet) Mage Armor, Protection from Evil, Burning Blade, Greater Magic Weapon, Keen Weapon, Displacement, Haste, Stoneskin, Spiderskin, Greater Heroism, Draconic Might, Energy Immunity (Fire)

Pet had 150 hp, 31 AC, +26/+21+16 AB, 1-10 +24 (Crit 17-20/x2) +4 Physical +1d6 Fire damage. Plus 50% Concealment and damage reduction.

Feedback:
I want to say this area feels a bit easier since the update, but I'm not entirely sure. Was it updated? My first time through after the update I was able to kill everything in the Border area with my pet only taking maybe 50 HP of damage. The AB on the orcs is around the 25 range, up to about 28-29 on the greens. However, as so many of the orcs are gray-named, they have low will saves and spend most of the time fleeing in cowardice from my death knight, which might be skewing my findings. The spawn size varies considerably, too, which makes it hard to estimate difficulty. Did have trouble when it spawned a larger-than-usual group with several greens. Such large groups shouldn't be a problem with a group of players, but my solo DK was outmatched.

Made it as far in as I have before by using death knight instead of Tenser. DK might actually do better than Tenser due to his fear, though. I'm trying now again with Tenser and having similar difficulties as I had before the update, which makes me think this area was not one of the ones updated. With DK, had difficulties with the center spawn in the path (a place that has killed me/my groups every time I came there prior to today's update), but primarily due to sheer quantity of mobs overwhelming my single death knight.

Loot:
Saw three loot bags drop. Again had two scroll drops. Also saw a greatsword.

[Cornuto]

Appreciate the detailed feedback. I'll look at balancing these areas more tonight.

Off the top of my head, significant changes were made to Whurest, the Viridale, and Mirakus mines -- the necropolis has had its creatures rebalanced, but we'll likely need to go over the actual encounters (the triggers that determine which type and how many of each creature spawn).

[Farmboy2003]

I just did a whack at the Privateers and I must say that they are far better a challenge for a melee 2 rogue/2 ranger. I can even sneak up on them now! Going from running always to actually puttin those scouting skills and abilites to proper use is really nice. Thumbs up!

I didn't expect the aurilite inquisition though.