Persistent Item Properties

[thaelis]

I typically reply cordially to anything that doesn't involve taking a virtual hammer to the groin of the player base and give them a messy castration with no anesthetics. Feel free to browse most of my post history, it's not nearly as long as some members. I personally think there are easier and simpler ways of doing things than completely redoing entire system mechanics to bring spell casters down when we could just bring mundanes up.

By bring mundanes up, you mean the aforementioned Ring of Power, Ring of regeneration and other OP items being introduced? (I'm assuming here on logic that these are not already present in the mod?)

I think that would defy the whole aim of the "low-magic" thing the creators are trying to do

[roguethree]

Servers with 20th level casters aren't low magic, no matter the level of gear introduced. They're simply low-magic-for-people-who-can't-cast-spells.

[Satoshi]

Servers with 20th level casters aren't low magic, no matter the level of gear introduced. They're simply low-magic-for-people-who-can't-cast-spells.

To further expand on this, saying that Sundren is a low-magic server: when there are template-laden stat-enhanced vampire players who have access to built-in Rings of Regeneration, undead immunities, immunity to mind-affecting spells; when there are level 20 arcane spellcasters who can transform themselves into horned devils with 51 AC and enough raw stats to make a passible, if slow fighter; when there are divine spellcasters that can extend short duration battle buffs enough times in one rest sitting to make any Weaponmaster envy his (temporary) AB, AC, and slew of resistances - you are clearly not in a 'low magic setting.' All you're doing is making those players who have struggled along angry and frustrated while they watch the others who are likewise angry and frustrated because they only have one way to play.

This is a dead horse topic. I know it is, and I know that there has been talk behind the scenes that most of the player base don't see about fixing the crafting system and introducing better magic items. I'm really not trying to sound angry and bitter, but the situation has been lopsided for a long time and telling people like Xaayne that they just have to deal with it when Ruby can solo Ixis if she feels like blows my mind. There's a lot of hate leveled at Favored Souls and Clerics, but they self-buff themselves because most of their best abilities are self-only and the resistances, DR, and immunities they get make them the only ones that can reasonably survive the focus of current dungeon designs. And while I may not be the most active person on the server, I can count on one hand the number of pure arcane spell casters on the server and I know that one of my favorites does not play his wizard because he does not like the play style of using all of his spell slots buffing everyone and then following around invisible and feeling like a spare tire.

This is just how I see things, and all of the back and forth may get heated but I don't care to throw blame. I'd rather just see things fixed, and everyone have fun.

[Torgar]

Alright, you all know me by now, I'm mister "can't do a post in under 10 paragraphs" Torgar, Brendig86 to those who don't know, and so far, all I am seeing getting done on this post is people either being pissy at the staff because the level of gear on the server isn't already up to their expectations on how they believe the server should be, Satoshi, or people who believe that many of the items we have that very few, if any, actually use or are allowed to use, lovable staff member Cornuto, and very few people are in the middle ground, thaelis.

I have pretty much at this point officially played almost every class to at least the upper mid levels. I've played divine and arcane casters to level 18+, even got one to 21. I've also played non casters to the same levels, and as of Tarkanik, I have been in every faction on the server that a player can join at least once, so I have seen at one point or another every item that is buyable by a player. I've also extensively researched the current crafting system, and with the help of many of my fellow players, have found pretty much every recipe that does and doesn't work, and every item and can and can not be enchanted, and with all of that experience, experience that was gained through the hard work of everyone who gave their blood, sweat, and tears (online, we're nerds, it's too much effort to do that in real life), I can say one thing with perfect truth: There can not be a low magic server if magic itself is not itself being limited.

Now, I want to be clear on this: I do not condone the idea of casters having their level capped at a lower margin then non casters, because that will only create resentment among those who play casters, and we will eventually stop seeing casters. Mundane classes NEED casters. No matter how good our sword is, no matter how powerful our armor, no matter how awesome our stats, we NEED casters to get it all, and to get the chance to show it off by hitting pixelated monsters with said swords. Again, weakening a class to make the other's better doesn't work.

Second, and I can NOT stress this enough after playing three (Not one, not two, but THREE) clerics, one wizard, a sorceror, and a spirit shaman each to at least level 16, and please do not take this the wrong way people who RP their casters as greedy casters, this is not to speak towards RP, simply mechanics. Know ye this: This is not a server that endorses soloing, so stop making casters just to solo, you are mechanically a support class, stop being unsupportive!

What I mean is, if you are playing a wizard, and you don't like buffing other people and turning invisible, well, there are ways to play a wizard where you can buff, get to nuke, and only invis as a way to avoid agro, and get right back to nuking. It's called "Not min/maxing your character to have an 8/10 con score, and learn to cast your defensive spells so you can nuke things without being a invisiwizard" I thought I knew how to play wizards, until someone showed up as their level 18 wizard who had over 200 hp without transforming, that was just his HP total. He didn't turn invis, he buffed a team, nuked the bad/neutral guys, and when someone hit him, he killed them first, because he could take a hit.

Again, I am speaking strictly mechanics. If your RP involves your wizard being a sickly little nerd who casts spells but get's nauseous at the sight of blood, more power to you! So, again, stop making solo acts. This server, although not disallowing the action, does not endorse soloing. This is a Roleplaying server, and you are not roleplaying when you are by yourself grinding with your super caster. I would much rather roleplay with you, even if said roleplay involves your character steamrolling mine in PVP, at least then there is player interaction, which is the point. It is what the staff is trying to get us to do, interact with each other. I just won RPotM, I'm a good roleplayer, you all said so. Ok, some of you said so. The point is, a lot of us are very good people to role play with, so stop being a solo act and at least become a dynamic duo!

Ok, stuff on casters? Check. Stuff on soloists? Check. That leaves us with...gear.

Alright, let's all be honest here, and all be adults about this. I am not, I repeat NOT, accusing anyone on the current staff or development team of creating a crappy item table for us to buy from. Far from it, many of the items in the various faction stores are actually quite awesome. Once the reputation system is finished being tweaked and ranking up becomes more feasible for the general population, a lot of the higher ranked faction gear is quite powerful, for a low magic server. So, again, the development portion of the staff did not do a "fucking terrible job" as some have said. Here is what actually happened, and bear with me, I'm about to blow your minds.

The server has evolved since the faction stores were put in place.

So, your minds blown yet? Yes, it's true, our server is evolving. What those who are newer to the server, (which includes me, but I learned this lesson early on) don't realize is that a lot of the faction stores were designed for a level 15 capstone. Let me tell you, a level 15 character with a full set of the top end legion gear? Two words: Billy Badass. You've got your +3 longsword with additional damage against chaos, your +3 fullplate, your +4 towershield of I'm-better-then-every-shield-on-the-server-so-suck-it, and a +3 deflection/saves cloak, along with various rings and amulets that all in all, make for a very powerful level 15 character who can handle pretty much anything.

Back when the cap was 15, a lot of these items did not have a rep requirement. And since it is much slower getting gold in those lower levels then it is at level 18-20 grinding veritas, obtaining said items took a long time. Now that we can get gold quicker, there are rank requirements to use those items, so that all of us aren't walking around in our factions finest wares being uber bamfs. Except for the members of the corps de grace. I'm sorry staff, but that store really is every reason why Luska had no reason to invade sestra, because there was definitely nothing of value there to loot. I say that with great love for you all, but again, CdG store=yuck.

So, if we can't weaken casters level cap without pissing them off, and we can't make the items too strong without pissing the staff off, the compromise to me is a very little bit of both. Now, I already know some of the things I'm going to suggest are either already being implemented in one fashion or another, or are going to be ignored because lets be honest, I think we've all realized I just like to see me type a lot of words sometimes to force people to read. I endorse literacy, sue me :P

Persistant freedom of movement is too strong. Freedom of movement 3/day at CL 7 is too weak. Suggested solution: Increased duration and lowered castings/day. CL 15 2/day will make it far more useful, and much more resistant to dispelling, without making it IMMUNE to dispelling. Reason for wanting persistant freedom: Bigby spells.

Bigby spells are too powerful, having a spell that has no save that immediately takes someone out of an entire fight is unfair. Suggested solution: Get rid of all bigby spells above interposing hand (-10 to attacks for round/level) If interposing hand takes you, as a fighter, out of a fight entirely, you were not going to win that fight to begin with. Reason for wanting to use bigby spells: Casters want to win, easiest way are these spells.

I personally do not believe that items with persitant immunities are too powerful, simply because many of them mimic immunities that low level spells already give to casters anyways, or the immunity they give is only useful to a non-casting class. Umberhulk hide heavy shield: +2 heavy shield with immunity to all mind affecting. Tigen, as a spirit shaman, actually used this shield for a long time, and I can say this with full conviction: It is the most expensive +2 shield I could ever have wasted money on as a caster, period.

Immunity to mind affecting? Seriously, on a caster, that is pretty much worthless. I'm already immune to mind affecting by the time I can buy this shield, because I have magic. Also, every caster get's will saves as a primary save. Even wizards have decent will saves. Add to that we have conviction/greater resist/Superior resist/ heroism/Greater heroism, the list goes on. We aren't failing mind affecting saves, more often then not, we aren't even buying magical heavy shields. This persistant immunity helps one group: People without will saves, who are also coincidently NOT CASTERS.

Because, in the end, that is the entire point of a magical item. It is something that someone without the ability to casts spells can wear, to duplicate an effect that a spell caster can already do, and usually does better. Stat items? Persisted stat buffs are higher. Mind immunity? Casters are already immune. Constant freedom of movement? Any cleric who's going solo has at least 2 extended freedom's prepped, or is right next to a campfire, so he's already got it, and theirs works better then the ring anyways.

More on next post, not done making my point. Good part coming up, promise!

[Torgar]

Roguethree has said it before, and I fully agree: Better items does not empower casters, it improves everyone else. +4 armor on a cleric just means he saves a 3rd or 4th level spell slot. That is it. For a fighter, it means his entire world just got better, forever. It is something he can not achieve on his own. It is something he did not just get one out of his 8 fourth level slots back for. That +3 longsword? Casters don't care, they have +5 greater magic weapon by the time they can buy that sword, so they'll just spend 30gp on a basic one, and let the fighter pay 90,000 for it. Which the fighter will gladly do, because he just increased his chance to hit something another 5-10% per swing above his previous sword, and hitting something with his weapon is the ONLY thing he can do. If something can not be hit with his weapon, he has officially nothing to do. A caster hits the weapon immune thing with magic and makes it go away.

So, in summary: Casters being weakened at this point in our servers evolution by lowering their level is bad. Don't do it. Casters need to stop making themselves to only solo, because sundren...No, the entirety of Dungeons and Dragons, from the very begining more then forty years ago, is based on a GROUP, no an individual. Suck it up, team up with people. And do not say "There's never anyone to group with" because there is always two to four people saying that on the server at the same time. You are all there looking for a group, go group up. Find a reason to run into eachother, RP it out, and go get some gold and exp, the server will be much better for it.

More summary: Most of the items don't suck, they are just hard to get to. Stronger items only really strengthen those without access to magic, so keeping item power low simply expands the gap of relative power between those with magic and those without.

Major part of summary that was probably forgotten by now: Stop blaming the current staff for everything wrong with the server. Almost none of them were staff when the problems we keep complaining about happened, they are trying their best to fix it. Give them a break. Seriously, constant berating of them results in one thing: Apathy. Last year had a lot of apathy, because people just wanted to complain about how horrible the staff was, and blamed them for every problem the server had. And no, I'm not excluding myself, I'm as guilty as the rest of us. Ask Catastrophe, she'll tell you, I vexed her to no end about stupid innane stuff that just wasn't her fault.

Final point: This is a game guys. At the end of the day, it's actually sort of a crappy game, lets be honest. On a scale of 1 to 10, this is not some of obsidian's best work. NWN1 was so much better and smoother, it's not even funny. We all agree on this point. So, FFS (For fucks sake), would you all just treat it like the kinda crappy game it is, and not get so worked up about such mindless, stupid problems? We all come from around the world, but it's really just a bunch of us nerds playing a silly game of DnD with some of us rotating in as the DM at the time.

And if you truely are so angry, so vexed, at a stupid buggy game, then I urge you as a fellow nerd and gamer, play something more fun for you. This is not me saying to leave us alone, I'm saying find a game that makes you happy. Stressing out about a game is not healthy for you, period. There is so much real life crap to stress over just in day to day life, that stressing over imaginary people doing make believe things in a made up place isn't just unhealthy, it's borderline crazy.

Oh, and for the love of the gods, someone stop me the next time I make a caster. Seriously, I had six of them at level 15 or higher. How rediculous does that sound?

[Standur]

So, in summary: Casters being weakened at this point in our servers evolution by lowering their level is bad. Don't do it. Casters need to stop making themselves to only solo, because sundren...No, the entirety of Dungeons and Dragons, from the very begining more then forty years ago, is based on a GROUP, no an individual. Suck it up, team up with people. And do not say "There's never anyone to group with" because there is always two to four people saying that on the server at the same time. You are all there looking for a group, go group up. Find a reason to run into eachother, RP it out, and go get some gold and exp, the server will be much better for it.

First let me say I am in agreement with nearly all of what you have to say in these posts and I share your sentiments but saying there is never anyone to group with is a valid complaint. I consider myself to be a decent RP'er and I try almost every time I am on to find someone to party with but I have one or two PC's that I truly enjoy playing but have only been able to get into a party on rare occasions and it is not for a lack of trying. That statement is true sometimes with 10 to 14 PC's on the server.

The level 8-12 PC has a lonely life and I have asked myself why? Factions are a part of that reason and I am not complaining about factions. I love the factions on Sundren but when half to two-thirds of the PC's are in opposing factions and those in complimentary factions politely inform you your PC "needs a few more levels" it is difficult to party.

Even with Ryland I spend way more time not partied than I would like and I don't turn away party invitations unless there is a faction reason or I am interacting with a DM in some way. To be honest I understand it when players are trying to be polite by telling me my PC's are (going to die a horrible death) not a high enough level for the area they are going to but I would rather get steamrolled for 10 minutes of good RP than spend a couple of hours by myself on the server.

I will probably type some more thoughts later about partying but my wife just told me I have to leave for work. *sighs* I'd rather stay and play but in short I am echoing what Brendig said plus try to make an effort to party more.

[Satoshi]

Torgar, you have pretty much restated most of what has already been said in this and other threads. I know that the current staff and development team has changed dramatically from the time I started (and stopped) playing, that the shift has been gradual and (hopefully) everything will eventually reach a happy medium. However, it's been a while since the June 17th 2011 update that increased the level cap and there has been little official communication about the intent of the developers in regards to item store reworks to be more level appropriate or a shift in the server's of 'Oh, mundane classes suck and need help, but we're busy working on how to nerf casters and add new areas'. What we have heard, however, is typical whispers about how spell casters are overpowered and measures are being taken to bring them down a peg off of their high horses - Ha, take that spell casters, for being so useful!(Dramatization, in case you couldn't tell.)

Standur makes another point (if a bit off topic for the point of this thread) about how people who have not been long-term players, who live in the 'unsupported' time zones, or simply are in factions that make grouping difficult unless you're content with ignoring certain server rules and partying simply for the sake of having a full group with no real roleplay or motivation. There's a Sundren Teamspeak that I know exists but never bother using, as well as the always open Ventrilo that GBX hosts that I prefer - it's great for people who know where to look and make friends easily to get small groups going, but it's a much more daunting prospect for new players, shy players, or people who just don't play well with Lawful Good.

(Veritas, Black Hand, Thayans rejoice! ...nope, just kidding. )

[Standur]

My prior post does seem a bit off topic but mostly because I didn't get to finish the post which I will attempt to do now. I have a level 7 ranger that can get around the easier parts of Viridale as long as I take pleanty of healing supplies. Same ranger at level 4 skipped around the same parts of Viridale like he owned the place because he was partied with a wizard or sorcerer and a cleric. Moral of the story is to solo I need better gear. To party I only need a few buffs. I know which I would prefer.

[Saulus]

Everyone seems so obsessed with the fact that people who don't cast spells might have some kind of disadvantage over other players.

We don't have the development resources of an MMO, so balancing will never be 100% in all facets (loot drops, encounters, classes etc). DMs try to make up for that, but don't expect things to be perfect in an imperfect world.

Caster strength will be drastically addressed when we change the rest rules... Why haven't we yet? Because the encounters need to all be altered across the board at the same time, or it will cause more problems than it solves.

With casters being drastically more limited in how many spells per day they can regain (with spells per day regained... yes only once per IG day unless resting in a special rest zone), this will affect their endurance greatly.

This will be the only change (planned as of right now) that will be a step towards creating more harmony in the classes on the server. If we feel there's still a large disparity in terms of capability, we may take further measures to address the issue... But please don't ever mistake our intentions as trying to turn DnD into a balanced game.

[Snowmane]

Looks like the staying power of Melee classes and bandaging are going to become very important. This will actually result in a better gold sink too, as scrolls and potions will become very important to fill in the time spans when the casters can't recover spells.

My Melee character Maneae thanks you, my EK Minael hates you, all the rest are ambivalent

[Satoshi]

Meaningful, direct announcement of intent.

Thank you, Saulus. I'm looking forward to the encounter changes more than anything else. I still think that a lateral boost via items directed at non-magical classes would be better than a new rest system, but that's a personal opinion.

[Mournas]

Why do people call Sundren a Low-Magic world? Just because there aren't +5's with +6 Stat enhancements does not mean that Sundren is Low Magic. In a Low-Magic world a +3 Weapon with no other additional bonuses and abilities would be a Low-Magic setting. Also the vast majority of spells would need to be nerfed to have a much lower effect for Sundren to be considered a Low-Magic setting.

[Root]

Why do people call Sundren a Low Magic world? Just because there aren't +5's with +6 Stat enhancements does not mean that Sundren is Low Magic. In a Low-Magic world a +3 Weapon with no other additional bonuses and abilities would be a Low-Magic setting. Also the vast majority of spells would need to be nerfed to have a much lower effect for Sundren to be considered a Low-Magic setting.

Er... What definition of 'Low-Magic' are we running on?

If we're talking the actual DnD one, then Sundren is probably medium-magic. The valley was created by wizards, there's a magic shop in most given towns, and there's a Thayan enclave and mages in the army and as government agents. Still, it isn't so prevalent that it's replaced manual labour and so on, so it's not high-magic.

Still, every NWN or NWN2 world I've seen that tries to create low-magic atmosphere by making magic items weaker only ends up making mundane classes weaker and therefore flooding the server with divine or arcane casters.

Lots of stuff

Agree wholeheartedly on everything. Can I get a ring of regeneration, please? According to the players handbook I should be able to afford one by this level, especially since it's not like I have anything better than mundane fullplate and a +1 sword. This isn't rewriting the game to make it balanced, it's just putting it back to how it's meant to be. We've taken original game balance, removed the crutch magic items of the mundane classes, and given casters the ability to rest in five seconds instead of eight hours, and to do so far more regularly than they should be able to.

[pidcocjn]

Why do people call Sundren a Low-Magic world? Just because there aren't +5's with +6 Stat enhancements does not mean that Sundren is Low Magic. In a Low-Magic world a +3 Weapon with no other additional bonuses and abilities would be a Low-Magic setting. Also the vast majority of spells would need to be nerfed to have a much lower effect for Sundren to be considered a Low-Magic setting.

Here is why people call Sundren a Low-Magic world:

What kind of server is Sundren?

Sundren is a role playing persistent world. Players are expected to be in character as often as possible. We strive above all else to offer fun, engaging gameplay in a rich interactive environment, where additional rulesets provide challenging and intriguing gameplay. Sundren is a low magic server with an emphasis on the community.

[Mournas]

Er... What definition of 'Low-Magic' are we running on?

If we're talking the actual DnD one, then Sundren is probably medium-magic. The valley was created by wizards, there's a magic shop in most given towns, and there's a Thayan enclave and mages in the army and as government agents. Still, it isn't so prevalent that it's replaced manual labour and so on, so it's not high-magic.

Still, every NWN or NWN2 world I've seen that tries to create low-magic atmosphere by making magic items weaker only ends up making mundane classes weaker and therefore flooding the server with divine or arcane casters.

Well, all I am saying is that there are +4 Stat Items, +4 Enchanted Items, Even items that give you feats like oh say Divine Might. There are even Ioun Stones that have Stackable +1 to a stat.

It is all what you make of it, and how you plan your character out. So be it Mundane classes are tied to the hip of casters, it has ALWAYS been this way. Always will be this way. Sure on paper you have more options. Its a game and as Torgar said, its kinda a crappy game. If you want a proper 3rd edition DnD Combat experience then there is this wonderful game called ToEE (Temple of Elemental Evil). Which will emphasize the strength and weaknesses of all classes. NWN 1 and 2 does a terrible job at showing off the Strengths and Weaknesses of most classes.

If you just want to play a proper game of DnD then go check out the Baldurs Gate series. 2nd Edition, Loads of Awesome RP and you don't have stupid things like PrCs which IMO are over powered.

Both games have a lot of UBER loot also.

Though a note on topic.

Spells like FoM and Deathward were made excessively over powered in 3rd edition. Having a persisted effect of these spells on is well ... over powered. (Not that there is a persisted Deathward item etc just giving an example of something that is over powered)