Persistent Item Properties

[Cornuto]

It's been a rule that the staff doesn't like items that give persistent anything. I disagree with this sentiment because casters can extend and persist spells so it's like having the item, and mundanes are up a creek. For example, the Freedom of Movement ring. Requires the rarest gem in the King's Tear and 10 super-hard-to-get snake skins. Your reward? FoM for 7 minutes, 2/day. Meanwhile, for one spell slot, random divine caster has it for 40 minutes. Stuff like that, not quite on the straight and level.

Big difference between passivly persistent non-dispellable FoM as an item property and a spell that can be extended to 40 minutes.

[Root]

One takes an item slot, denying the user things like deflection AC or saving throws?

[pidcocjn]

I disagree with this sentiment because casters can extend and persist spells so it's like having the item, and mundanes are up a creek.

I don't think I've ever been on a "low magic" server where mundanes aren't up a creek.

[Cornuto]

One takes an item slot, denying the user things like deflection AC or saving throws?

Try again, I gave away a lot of hints in my previous post.

[Zoberraz]

I thought 'non-dispellable if a persistent item-given ability' was the point that stood out in Cornuto's last post.

Apparently, a permanently-there Freedom of Movement that's not dispellable in exchange of something that takes a ring slot might be considered very overpowered.

[JotunWarrior]

The 7-minute FOM on the ring is 3/day, by the way.

[Satoshi]

It's been a rule that the staff doesn't like items that give persistent anything. I disagree with this sentiment because casters can extend and persist spells so it's like having the item, and mundanes are up a creek. For example, the Freedom of Movement ring. Requires the rarest gem in the King's Tear and 10 super-hard-to-get snake skins. Your reward? FoM for 7 minutes, 2/day. Meanwhile, for one spell slot, random divine caster has it for 40 minutes. Stuff like that, not quite on the straight and level.

This. So very much this. Now, if you made items that had persistent effects, or compared with the 'buff' spells that wizards and clerics had, you would have incredibly useful mundane classes (better, even, than 'self-buffed' casters). I think the only argument against this has been 'But, Satoshi! The casters can get these items, too!' ...uh, yeah, that's kind of the point. Now the casters aren't buffing themselves with those spell slots and are doing what they were intended to do in the first place: support (divine) or nuke the ever-loving shit out of things (arcane).

Cornuto, if your personal argument against such items is that the effects cannot be dispelled then you have to take into account that it costs a valuable gear slot. Assuming that gear slots were actually freaking valuable, this would be a big deal. Let me illustrate the point with a comparison, if you'd kindly observe with an open mind.

A Ring has Freedom of Movement. Let's ignore for a moment that mechanically, item spells don't work quite like the spells and it doesn't actually prevent all of the things that the spell does. When compared to a +2 (maybe a +3) stat ring, or a deflection bonus, or even a universal save ring it seems to be a pretty easy no-brainer that this is better. That's because the selection is poor. Now compare the ring with one that has 20 or 30 resistance to fire, cold, and acid like a Major Ring of Elemental Resistance, or a Ring of Wizardry/Divine Might that gives an extra spell slot of every level up to 5 or so. Let's go one even further: perhaps a Ring of Regenerate, or a Ring of Power. Now, that slot is highly contested for really good effects ranging from spell slots, to regeneration, to energy drain immunity, or passive energy damage resistances and you can only wear two. This happens with every item slot, since not all properties are on (or should be on) every item.

[Lothoir]

I agree completely with Satoshi and roguethree, with the addendum that such gear only marginally improves spellcasters, while significantly improving everyone else. Mundane classes get more use out of that sort of gear that than anyone else.

On the topic of Freedom of Movement rings, the only thing it makes you immune to is a smattering of instant-win spells for wizards/clerics and possibly assassin Death Atack paralysis, though I haven't checked that. It provides no protection from Grease's knockdown effect or any save or die spells. It just wards you against Bigby and Storm of Vengeance paralysis. Spellcasters still have 9 spell levels full of ways to ruin a fighter or rogue's day, if that's a concern.

Even if/when those spells are nerfed that would just make the ring less useful, not more.

[Dragor]

If there is a question of it being too powerful, there can always be a negative effect on the item as well. Since I really do not see any of these items being handed out without a DM being involved.

There is already a shield that gives perm immunity to mind affecting spells, unfortunatly it is in a shop that isn't frequented by fighters oftimes...

[Cornuto]

There is already a shield that gives perm immunity to mind affecting spells, unfortunatly it is in a shop that isn't frequented by fighters oftimes...

We should remove that shield then, or change it to a bonus to saves vs. mind spells. Items that grant permenant flat immunities aren't supposed to be in the module.

I agree that the server is tipped way too much in favor of spellcasters at the moment. We're working on a number of things to help to level the playing field (a few of these are already pending next server update), but giving everyone access to a slew of immunity items isn't likely to be one of them.

[Chiangtao]

You can always use the FoM ring, then swap it out with a useful stat ring once you enter combat. I agree that the scales are tipped, but I don't agree that persistant effect items are a good solution to that.

[pidcocjn]

Since we're on the subject, what would be a good solution?

I'm just going to throw out a few ideas in my head without thinking too hard:

-Increasing the rest duration (if possible): It seems funny that it takes my level 6+ character longer to put on armor than it does for her to rest.

-Increase the time between rests: This would make spells much much more valuable. As it stands now, when a fighter (or other mundane class) rests they only gain back X + Y hitpoints. When a non-mundane class rests, they gain X + Y hitpoints AND all of the wondrous abilities/spells that comes with being wondrous.

[Cornuto]

Since we're on the subject, what would be a good solution?

I'm just going to throw out a few ideas in my head without thinking too hard:

-Increasing the rest duration (if possible): It seems funny that it takes my level 6+ character longer to put on armor than it does for her to rest.

-Increase the time between rests: This would make spells much much more valuable. As it stands now, when a fighter (or other mundane class) rests they only gain back X + Y hitpoints. When a non-mundane class rests, they gain X + Y hitpoints AND all of the wondrous abilities/spells that comes with being wondrous.

Something like this is very much in the works.

[Chiangtao]

Something like this is very much in the works.

Shhh it's a secret!

I hope it doesn't involve me needing to carry around a bedroll in my inventory!

[Satoshi]

It's going to involve divine and arcane spell casters no longer recovering spells per day unless they are specifically in an area marked 'Rest Zone'. I'll hold my comments on that being a poor idea until I see the reworked dungeons in effect(assuming both are being released at the same time, otherwise it's a fucking terrible idea).