In regards to Stone Body

[Dragor]

I'd rather see other mundane classes made better rather than get on the nerf train.

This cannot actually be considered nerfing since it is not actually a "real" spell.

Personally I think it is the encounters and dungeons that need fixed aside from a few totally broken effects like no-wearing off DR that lasts for 40 minutes

[Satoshi]

It was an imitation, lower level Iron Body made available to both spell casting classes at earlier levels where risk of death is significantly higher and honestly doesn't seem too entirely out of place when you consider spell lists in general, and the fact that any sufficiently adept spell caster can literally make new spells whenever they feel like spending the time and money (and xp). If you want, you can say that over the last two months Rafael developed the spell, and gave it the Lathanderite seal of approval. Or any mystic theurge like James Arrow could develop a "poor man's" Iron Body.

[Dragor]

It was an imitation, lower level Iron Body made available to both spell casting classes at earlier levels where risk of death is significantly higher and honestly doesn't seem too entirely out of place when you consider spell lists in general, and the fact that any sufficiently adept spell caster can literally make new spells whenever they feel like spending the time and money (and xp). If you want, you can say that over the last two months Rafael developed the spell, and gave it the Lathanderite seal of approval. Or any mystic theurge like James Arrow could develop a "poor man's" Iron Body.

Except Clerics do not get Iron Body

[Cornuto]

All I was saying is that if Stone Body is removed, Living Undeath has no reason not to be put back in. Between that and Righteous Might, nothing really changes. You're arguing a mostly pointless, and I believe misguided, change pursuit which I highlighted in my second post. Arcane spell casters would still have Iron Body, Clerics would be able to give everyone crit immunity at a much lower level. Sure, you have to deal with a hit to charisma and some funky feelings IC, but it's a small price to pay to ignore the biggest threat Sundren has. On top of that, now the cleric has to use more spell slots to grant energy resistance or immunity to themselves meaning less support spells for the rest of the party, and multiple lower level spell slots (where all of their support transmutation and armor spells are). They're even less likely to worry about saving spells for healing than before, thus defeating the purpose of their intended change.

The only way to make clerics and favored souls take a support role, is to give their 'buff' spell effects to items and give them to the other classes. That's how it works in Pen and Paper, if you recall.

Why would we ever put living undeath back in? I'm not following your logic.

[Satoshi]

I'm not following the logic of removing it, either. Aside from the arguement 'we can't make encounters challenging without removing your ability to become immune to critical hits'.

[Cornuto]

Righteous Might has DR 9/Good or Evil. Read your spells before you say that anyone is losing DR by removing the spell. It's why I called you stupid.

Its a round/level though.

Kind of like ethereal visage.

[Dragor]

I'm not following the logic of removing it, either. Aside from the arguement 'we can't make encounters challenging without removing your ability to become immune to critical hits'.

That wasn't the arguement presented for removing it, I've been looking for the thread that started that mess, haven't found it yet...

Here is one of the threads: http://www.sundren.org/forum/showthr...living+undeath

[Cornuto]

I'd happily remove Stone Body, just saying. I think we had plans to do away with FoM being able to negate the movement speed decrease.

[ManUtd4Ever]

...do away with FoM being able to negate the movement speed decrease.

If the spells needs to be nerfed in any way, I believe this is a fair and equal trade off.

However, I generally ask myself why someone wants a particular part of the game changed before I jump on board. In this case, Stone Body completely nerfs the awesome powers of a Stormlord. I am just saying...

[Satoshi]

I think we had plans to do away with FoM being able to negate the movement speed decrease.

That, and a visual FX to indicate that it was active. Those two things should already be in (I assume they are still in the works?) and make the spell reasonable as-is. I can handle the speed decrease anywhere that I would actually use the spell.

[roguethree]

Maybe someone with sourcebooks has more info than I, but as far as I know, Living Undeath and Stonebody are both unique to NWN2. Clerics/FSs can already buff to 40+ AC and 40+ AB; taking away their crit and sneak immunity would help balance a lot, and we wouldn't even be removing canon spells; I'm all for it.

Removing Stone Body has the r3 seal of approval.

[Cornuto]

If the spells needs to be nerfed in any way, I believe this is a fair and equal trade off.

However, I generally ask myself why someone wants a particular part of the game changed before I jump on board. In this case, Stone Body completely nerfs the awesome powers of a Stormlord. I am just saying...

And rogues... and rangers... and weaponmasters... and...

[Satoshi]

Living Undeath is a Pen and Paper spell from the Minatures Handbook (same book as Favored Soul), and in the Spell Compendium.

http://community.wizards.com/go/thre...ate_Spell_List

[Zoberraz]

I don't have any objection to removal. Stone Body is a powerful spell that puts the equivalent Stoneskin to shame along with some buffs of its own. The drawbacks are largely diminished by an exploit which doesn't allow the slowdown implied by being turned into a statue to truly come into effect.

Just on that account, I know as a DM I wouldn't allow it to my table without some pretty large roleplayed caveats in the spirit of said spell - I'd for one play up the weight of the player turned statue, his slow movement and how that'd likely result in slower traveling to get to the next encounters too. Seeing how not everyone would be thrilled to be slowed down like that I'd expect it's use to be seen by adventurers as 'for 1 battle only' or special circumstances.

I'll admit to a bias as a ranger player since I dislike persistent, high-DR and how it affects things PvP-wise. ManUtd4Ever's mention of how Stormlords would be diminished only makes me even more for removing the spell - heck, Stormlords are powerful enough and I've seen enough of Xenaphon to know they hardly need Stonebody to perform well. If the class depends on a single spell like that to feel it 'performs as it should', then there's a problem.

As a Druid player, it bothers me less. If I know I'm likely to fight someone with Stonebody, I'll just dispel it away and eat him off with stacked Creeping Dooms. Done it before, can do it again.

...but, for all the above opinionated arguments I've made... foremost on my mind is how Stonebody's mobility penalty ends up being mitigated the way it is by players. It's nothing Freedom of Movement should have any effect on even though it does mechanically within the gameclient. I'm sure people can go and feel clever by using that spell combination, but it's borderline cheating in my eyes. If they want to use such a powerful spell for its tier, let them live with the drawbacks.

[Satoshi]

Zoberraz, he was saying that Stone Body greatly REDUCES the effect of a Stormlord's offense on the affected target.