In regards to Stone Body

[Dragor]

Can this spell be removed after the new encounter system is put in?

It can actually be said that the current encounter level is where it is because of this spell, and this spell only exists to make the nwn single player campaign playable as a spellcasting class.

Removing it before a more dynamic and easier to adjust encounter system is in place would be pointless however considering all the encounters for lvl 11+ are effectivly set at a difficulty where this spell is nearly required and rescripting encounters that are being re-done anyway is silly.

This move will, in theory, severely limit divine casters ability to solo the mod any more easily that any other class and would relegate them to more of the support role intended for them.

also...more traps

That is all until I identify another completely made up spell that exists only to make NWN2 soloable

[Satoshi]

Remove Stone Body, put Living Undeath back in. Replace DR with Righteous Might. Problem, Dragor?

On a serious note, we shouldn't factor balance based on the 'the most powerful aspects of the NWN2 engine'. That's what makes it hard on all but the most powerbuilt characters who will still find ways to solo everything but the most retarded NPCs ever conceived (Sebastian, and the Revenant to a lesser extent come to mind). Don't worry about making every area balanced - some areas should have classes that function super-effective and others lag behind. An ideal rogue dungeon should have a lot of traps and secret doors/locked chests. An ideal mage dungeon should have object that require spellcraft/decipher script/Arcana checks. An ideal fighter/barbarian dungeon should have strength requirements to unjam doors. Or swim checks to bypass unnecessary spawns.

There's a lot more interesting things that could be done than just throw hordes of high strength, high dr, dual-weiding two-handed weapons with x3 crit damage at people. Boring dungeon layouts are currently boring, and adding dispel traps does not make them more interesting or engaging.

[Dragor]

Almost always yes, or are you being specific to the issue?

Being serious though, I was in favor of removing Living Undeath when it was removed, not sure if I've changed my mind or not. I do not understand how you can replace DR with Righteous Might though...

I've actually pushed class specific dungeons before, and nearly had an episode when the only rogue friendly dungeon that was unfriendly to everything else was made very rogue unfriendly.

I am currently waiting until this much touted encounter system is implemented before I freak out about game balance anymore though.

[Satoshi]

I think you're being stupid, personally, but everyone rages whenever they don't have access to the same toys as everyone else. If there was better magic items that had spell completion components that mundane classes could use to shore up their weakness, everything would be fine. But, that takes a while to do and requires developers to add more content.

We do not need to remove options. We need to give people without many options more. No matter how hard you try to make Sundren an MMO, it will never have enough people to sustain a serious, ideal population with enough characters who have coinciding goals to develop long-term parties. Small groups and soloing are going to happen. You have to accept and deal with that.

[Twisted-Indoctrine]

Mmm... Yes and no.

I do feel the ability to nullify critical hits entirely removes a great deal of risk from gameplay that SHOULD be present for classes without high hit point totals (that is to say clerics, thieves and mages should be afraid of critical hits occurring and their, and anyone else's for that matter, methods for mitigating them shouldn't remove them entirely). Engaging in combat ought to be a dangerous consideration, weapons your enemy is using should be brought to mind when choosing who and what to engage first, that sort of thing.

Basically dying unexpectedly from traps and crits should be more present. It's not always fun, I admit, and maybe it's just that I've been playing Dark Souls and Demon Soul a bit lately speaking, but fun shouldn't always be winning all the time by overpowering mechanics. Fun should involve risk, and yes, even death on occasion. Risk feels lacking when fully buffed for the insane periods of time that are possible and given the relaxed death system in effect.

That said, an adjustment to spell duration is probably more appropriate in this case. It doesn't need to be removed but tweaked perhaps so that it is a valuable short term power buff, and I mean in the length of no more than two minutes tops. Pretty much enough time to complete a fight where you suspect it might be important to have.

[Dragor]

I think you're being stupid, personally, but everyone rages whenever they don't have access to the same toys as everyone else. If there was better magic items that had spell completion components that mundane classes could use to shore up their weakness, everything would be fine. But, that takes a while to do and requires developers to add more content.

We do not need to remove options. We need to give people without many options more. No matter how hard you try to make Sundren an MMO, it will never have enough people to sustain a serious, ideal population with enough characters who have coinciding goals to develop long-term parties. Small groups and soloing are going to happen. You have to accept and deal with that.

Thank you for being so nice, the reason I'm actually suggesting removing stonebody is because it is not actually a real spell and was only put in the game to make the game easier for casters on the single player campaign. Also when one spell can completely change the balance of PvE there is something broken about it.

If it was insisted that it should stay then I would be willing to compromise on just making the DR wear off over time.

[Satoshi]

All I was saying is that if Stone Body is removed, Living Undeath has no reason not to be put back in. Between that and Righteous Might, nothing really changes. You're arguing a mostly pointless, and I believe misguided, change pursuit which I highlighted in my second post. Arcane spell casters would still have Iron Body, Clerics would be able to give everyone crit immunity at a much lower level. Sure, you have to deal with a hit to charisma and some funky feelings IC, but it's a small price to pay to ignore the biggest threat Sundren has. On top of that, now the cleric has to use more spell slots to grant energy resistance or immunity to themselves meaning less support spells for the rest of the party, and multiple lower level spell slots (where all of their support transmutation and armor spells are). They're even less likely to worry about saving spells for healing than before, thus defeating the purpose of their intended change.

The only way to make clerics and favored souls take a support role, is to give their 'buff' spell effects to items and give them to the other classes. That's how it works in Pen and Paper, if you recall.

[ManUtd4Ever]

Would the spell's resistance to electrical damage have anything to do with this request?

[Dragor]

The only problem I have with Stone Body is that the DR does not wear off, the rest of it is rubbish. And saying nothing changes by removing 10 dr is ignorant.

With Stone Body and without the short terms, 36 AC, I can, using my SL(lvl 17), take on about 8 of the mossdale border orcs, without Stone Body's 10 DR I am lucky to win against 1, using my short terms which include Righteous Might (my AC is at 40ish) changes that from 25 or so and about 5 or 6...This is all at once. My complaint is with the DR not wearing off, nothing more, it is the only game changing aspect of the spell.

I merely chose to justify removing it completely by pointing out that it was a completely made up spell by the game designers.

[Satoshi]

Righteous Might has DR 9/Good or Evil. Read your spells before you say that anyone is losing DR by removing the spell. It's why I called you stupid.

[[DM] Grinning Death]

Please keep the tone of this thread friendly, or it will get locked. This is the only warning.

[Catastrophe]

I'd rather see other mundane classes made better rather than get on the nerf train.

[Nyssis]

If you're so set on a change, you could always alter Stone Body to be more like Stoneskin. It can get an amount equal to 10 points for every two caster levels or something, and once it wears off you'd have to recast the spell in order to get the DR benefits (everything else can wear off normally as per the duration of the spell). I personally do not see the point of the stat bonuses on the spell because clerics have access to Bear's Endurance and Bull's Strength.

Or just lower the duration so it's more of an emergency spell like Regenerate.

I'd rather see other mundane classes made better rather than get on the nerf train.

I'm of the agreement with this, though.

[Dragor]

Righteous Might has DR 9/Good or Evil. Read your spells before you say that anyone is losing DR by removing the spell. It's why I called you stupid.

Right Dr 10 2 min per caster lvl is the same as dr 3/6/9 at 12 seconds per caster lvl...

A level 20 cleric will have righteous might up for what? 2 encounters? (its 240 seconds vs 40 minutes (2400 seconds)) Dr 9 for at most 3 encounters is not the same as DR 10 for half a dungeon.

Clerics cannot sit and spam short terms like a FS can.

Your replacement allows a cleric to enter meller for a short time if things get bad, what its replacing allows the complete soloing of nearly every dungeon in the module by lvl 18.

[Dragor]

If you're so set on a change, you could always alter Stone Body to be more like Stoneskin. It can get an amount equal to 10 points for every two caster levels or something, and once it wears off you'd have to recast the spell in order to get the DR benefits (everything else can wear off normally as per the duration of the spell). I personally do not see the point of the stat bonuses on the spell because clerics have access to Bear's Endurance and Bull's Strength.

Or just lower the duration so it's more of an emergency spell like Regenerate.

I'm of the agreement with this, though.

I believe i mentioned something about being willing to compromise and just make it where the DR wears off like Stoneskin