Doomguides shouldn't fade away

[Kaizen]

Doomguide is already a non-good PRC. It is open to Good, Neutral and Evil characters, so long as they are Lawful.

I'm sure there's plenty of wiggle room for a character serving Jergal to oppose the Black Hand (and as a result Myrkul's undead), I wouldn't expect a Jergalite Paladin to be happy with the BH, so a cleric against them is no big deal. (looking back at my origional post I shouldn't have included Myrkuls undead - Just undead sanctioned by the Jergalite church).

That said, Cornuto makes a good point with Ilmater, the comforting and healing aspects of the Doomguide class do fit in well with that. Though Ilmater would require a different set of alignment choices.

An Illmater Doomguide would essentially restrict the class to a Good alignment - but that might not be a bad thing, considering how many useful Good prc's are actually in the game (notawholelot).

Jergal would keep it open to all as Kelemvor was (Mathell was pushing Lawful Neutral with Evil tendencies when he was super Doomguide).

Both are good choices, in my mind.

Quick lore question, Doubt. What are some examples of 'sanctioned' undead by Jergal. I understand that undead scribes fall under this, and that's about it as my D&D knowledge is fairly limited and the D&D wiki doesn't tell much.

[Doubtful]

The church of Jergal used to hire out undead as work-teams, great for dangerous places or risky tasks, or just manual labour in general.

You'd pay the church to send out a cleric with a bunch of undead who'd get on with the task.

Apart from that, there's not a vast amount of info around - I think GBX might be able to shed more light on it than me.

They [Scriveners of Doom, Jergal Clergy] also took on such recordkeeping duties and burial tasks as the high priest of their temple agreed to perform for different groups or individuals. They kept tax rolls; recorded births, deaths, and the genealogy of noble lines; embalmed, mummified, cremated, and buried the dead; put down uncontrolled undead creatures or animated and controlled undead work forces to perform hired labor tasks to benefit the temple (strategically or financially). Many priests of Jergal were primarily morticians and prepared the dead for burial; those who did not provide financially for a proper burial with the church or their heirs were sometimes used as brute labor after their demise for a set period to repay the church for their funerals and the future care of their remains. (Those who offended the church were also said to turn up in zombie and skeleton work crews.)

It [Vaults of Doom, Jergal Temple ]was said to be guarded by undead of fearsome number and strength who only attacked at the bidding of a Scrivener of Doom. Its high priest was an ancient mummy of tremendous power whom no one saw except other Jergali priests. The temple, known as the Vaults of Doom, was said to guard the wealth of a hundred thousand noble burials.

[roguethree]

Jergalite Doomguides couldn't kill much of the undead on the server, as those undead are tied to Myrkul.

[Doubtful]

A Jergalite Paladin could, so why not a Jergalite Doomguide?

I shouldn't have mentioned Myrkul in the original post - It's Jergal Church sanctioned undead.

Yes, Jergal serves Myrkul - But that doesn't mean mindless compliance.

[Kaybrie]

I'm opposed to Jergal, if only cause his priesthood is boring, has no personal goals, and honestly it gives no leeway of love to the Kelemvorites who got shafted through this turn of events. It litterally sounds more like a 'sit down and like it' then a 'go out and kick some ass for your dead god.' Sure it makes sense from a mechanical standpoint, but from a roleplaying standpoint? I think Sundren has enough dour, emotionless undead killers, and could use more emotional, conflict driven action hero's.

[Lothoir]

Not that I don't agree with giving the class to Hoar or Illmater instead, though I much prefer Hoar for this....But:

I think Sundren has enough dour, emotionless undead killers, and could use more emotional, conflict driven action hero's.

Can you name one? Because I can't.

[Kaybrie]

Dain Tornbrook.

[Doubtful]

As much as I have a soft and squishy spot for Hoar, I don't really see him sitting well in the mantle of carer and helper in grief. It's hard to think of all those Hoarite Batman types soothing away someones fear of old age, and helping the family cope afterwards.

Kasso's pretty much spot of with the dourness of Jergals clergy though, (although it's wrong to think of Doomguides as primarily undead killers, that's their secondary function. Simply smiting undead on sight was a surefire way NOT to get the class unlocked.) perhaps Cornuto's Ilmater suggestion is the most reasonable so far, though it is a shame to lose the LE angle.

Edit:
Bah, Dain has emotions. They're just hidden under an emotional platemail almost as effective as his everyday armour.

[Lothoir]

It's hard to think of all those Hoarite Batman types soothing away someones fear of old age, and helping the family cope afterwards.

Vengeance is the best balm.

It would actually be fun to see how a Hoarite undead-specialist would take their new charge to help people cope with grief.

"I've paralyzed the creature that killed you family with the divine wrath of Hoar. Here is an alchemical silver mace and a gallon of holy water. You have five minutes."

[Kaybrie]

The Doomguide angle you'd be pushing with Hoar would be the former priesthood of Kelemvor, basically gaining a retributive, stab and kill Myrkulites policy that allows them to avoid being thrown into the wall on death. This doesn't mean that they still wouldn't be perfectly inclined to continue to carry out their old duties, just with more emphasis around being badasses then less.

Bah, Dain has emotions. They're just hidden under an emotional platemail almost as effective as his everyday armour.

His everyday armor makes him like a boulder rolling downhill though!

[Seheren]

I want this to go to Hoar, the God with the most bittersweet humor, and one open to all sorts of followers, from the a Good aligned avenger, to an evil uncaring killer. Loads to roleplay there. Its a very valid RP choice that followers feeling they ((and Kelemvor)) deserve vengance on Myrkul and his undead armies, while maintaining their former duties as Doomguides.

Edit: In-fact, why should doom-guide be for only one Diety? I think that in reality multiple dieties could split Kelemvor's specialty priests. Granting them each very similar powers, though the diety chosen by the Follower could differ. Some wanting vengance above all else, others wanting to continue the more 'important' duties and caring for the dying, and others continuing to not care about anything but death.

[Doubtful]

That only works in a few set situations though, the roll of the doomguide isn't just to focus on those who've died in situations requiring vengance.

It's hard to take vengance on bad luck, sickness, old age or other natural causes.

Taking a class that had a rather hard job as hand holder for the dying, carer for the living, and usherer of trapped spirits to the fugue plane and transforming it into a pretty one dimensional 'Derp, I kills Myrkul and zombs' undead munching machine seems a step backwards in terms of RP and development, not a step forward.

[Seheren]

It wouldnt be the first or the last time that dieties will steal the followers of a fallen God, granting them the same powers the previous God did. While the follower continued to do what he does.

Edited to better relay the point.

[Doubtful]

I can certainly see a few members of the clergy turning to the path of vengance, but I really don't see it fitting in well enough for it to be a wholesale departure to Hoar.

The main reason is vengance - Kelemvores clergy are (were) all about how to deal with death, and helping people to accept its inevitability and essentialness in life, from the Kelemvor Dogma: "Recognize that death is a part of life. It is not an ending but a beginning, not a punishment but a necessity."

It's hard to reconcile that acceptance of death as a fundimental part of the Doomguides role, with suddenly flipping out and getting all super-natural vengance over a death.

Acceptance, coping and moving on would be the most logical thing, not getting all hung up on it.

Not to mention that people should be used to change in the God of Death, it's only been 14 years since the Time of Troubles and Cyric taking the mantle from Myrkul, and a whole 4 years since Kelemvor took the job from Cyric. Every Doomguide around would have been alive when Myrkul was in the position.

[Torgar]

Well, the posts have been spirited this weekend. First off, I don't really see "Doomguide of Illmater" having any sort of ring to it. It just sounds....wrong. Illmater is the good aligned god of easing suffering, sure, but he's more of an ending suffering kind of person, not the "letting the person know they are dying and you're not here to help them live, just to comfort them as they die" sort of person. That's just my opinion.

As for Jergal, He's subservient to whichever god of death is in power, and so any time he sends a doomguide to destroy one of myrkul's undead, Myrkul is going to tell him to stop it, and he's going to go "Alright boss". It's why Jergal actually kind of liked Kelemvor, he wanted there to be no undead, and that was actually pretty ok with Jergal, kept his paperwork WAY down. Jergal also likes Myrkul because Myrkul is the god of death, and Jergal just doesn't really care in the end. Also, saying we should go with Jergal so that the class can remain open to both good and evil....well, Hoar is LN, so that would cover that easily, so in the end, not a lot of difference mechanically between Hoar and Jergal.

And I was one of the Kelemvorites that, as Kasso put it "got shafted" by the Myrkul rising events, and was a full blooded Doomguide at the time. I honestly feel that having Jergal take over the reigns and have doomguids will simply not work for our server. By the same token, i really feel that it wouldn't work for Illmater.

I feel Hoar might actually work just fine. They bring comfort to those who have been wronged, seek vengeance for said wrongs. In Sundren, they would just be those dedicated to helping those wronged by undead, which in sundren is half the population really. Vampire fed on your daughter, farmer? Well, the Doomguides of hoar will tend to your daughters health, track down the vampire that did it, and vanquish it. Your father was turned into a ghoul? Our doomguides will track down the ghoul, destroy it, and put your father to his intended final rest. Ailing grandfather? We'll tend to his discomfort, usher him to his final rest, and insure that he had no loose ends that needed tying.

Again, all just my personal opinions. Take them as you will.

PS: Dain isn't emotionless, he just has to put up with overemotional Lathanderites a lot, and he has to be the most visual person in the fight against the biggest evil in sundren. Tigen's seen him emotional, as has anyone who isn't, once again, an overemotional Lathanderite.