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  • Master of Many Forms

    This is a class that I think has amazing potential for RP and fun. However, I feel like I should raise a few concerns about this class, that have made being a MoMF very difficult.

    I feel the requirements for this class are extremely heavy, considering its relative weakness. it costs 3 feats, as well as DM permission to take the class. Once taken you begin to realize early on the forms have been toned down so far many have become useless in any combat situation. From what I hear the forms were drastically weakened at some point.

    This may have been necessary at the time, but at this point it seems that it has only made this class too weak. The top form, which I waited for until I finally hit level 17 has no combat potential. This is so with almost all of the current forms, their AC even with feats such as Elephants Hide still hovers barely over 30 at best.

    Here is the example of the top form.. The Young Red Dragon Form, at level 17 ((which is the highest form without being level 22 for a slightly upgraded Dragon form)) Has a base 22 AC ((around 30 with buffs)) does 1-4+4 damage with 19 STR and has a breath weapon that does aprox. 10d6 damage. The breath weapon is bugged and doesnt always go off and is generally not useful in most combat.

    The problem is, that form is significantly weaker than normal druid forms, and at the steep feat requirements and lack of any added spell casting, it comes out to be utterly useless in comparison. Even if it looks awesome. This is so for 99% of all the forms.

    I don't mean to sound accusing or demanding, even if I do sound that way, but in its current state the class is just not worth it. It would seem that is how most people feel considering there have only been a handful, and none in recent months.

    What I ask is that consideration is given, to breathe a little life into the Class. My suggestions would be as follows, regardless if my opinion means nothing.

    Feats required: Guardian of the Grove, Greater Fortitude, skill focus: Knowledge Nature, alertness. ((With added strength, the class should still need a bit steeper price.))

    Skills Required: same.

    Add to class : Spells gained on all odd numbered levels, and at one mid-high level ((6/7/8)) and at 10 allow a MoMF to take one of the natures warrior feats.

    As for the Forms: I would suggest they be looked at to be increased in power slightly. Mostly I think the AC possible on the upper forms is too low(( around 30 with buffs)), which is an easier fix. Add a bit more AC to the forms, look into why some spells do not stack with the Base AC of the forms.

    Also the combat usefulness isnt there. I really don't have a lot of ideas how to fix that though from what I heard long ago, some of the forms were much stronger, such as the giants. Why not just bring them back to their original strength.

    I would be glad to help any of the Staff to look at the different forms, test them, or whatever need be.


  • #2
    Originally posted by Seheren
    skill focus: Knowledge Nature
    This is a suggestion thread all in its own
    James Arrow: Potion Vendor

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    • #3
      Oh right. I forgot they aren't in.. Haha...

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      • #4
        No worries, man. It's a good idea and it sprung from your thread.
        James Arrow: Potion Vendor

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        • #5
          You're actually one level short of attaining a new dragon shape (18), which is an adult dragon.

          You gain (over the young) +6 strength, +4 con, +2 AC, d6 claws and d8 bite, and spell resistance 16.

          You also already have permanent immunity to paralysis and fire, true seeing, free feats for blind fighting, cleave, power attack and weapon focus.

          The level 18 dragon is far from a pushover. The non stacking AC is likely from your armour: it doesn't 'merge' into the dragon form, though it does merge into the giant forms.


          The dragon forms as they were before the nerf gave base strength and con scores in the range of the 40s, claw attacks of 2d8 and allowed stacking of your armour and items in addition to 10 more AC than you have now, at the same level.

          The Dev who made the class played one.

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          • #6
            Still, 1d4+4 damage? 1d10 breath weapon? A young red dragon should have a 6d10 (DC 19) breath weapon and do 2d6 damage with his bite. Claws would be 1d8.
            James Arrow: Potion Vendor

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            • #7
              ...At least, he played it until becoming a samurai. Fun times.

              I think this class is always going to be a bit of a struggle to balance, mostly because a lot of druidy shapeshifting power is in the fact that they can cast and buff themselves while shifted, and the spellcasting takes a huge hit with MoMF. In favor of giving it a bit more love, though. There must be a middle ground.
              Adama who was once called Adama Hrakness, sacred paw of Mielikki

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              • #8
                I nerfed them to be more in line with characters of your own level, while trying to keep a sense of progression between dragon age categories. It would be possible to improve the earlier dragon forms, or just having less upgraded versions.

                No idea where you're getting the 1d10 breath weapon from. It's 10d6.

                Standard Monster Manual entries are balanced to be used without loads of buffs and items put on them. As we don't want to eliminate the effect of all items your character has equipped, nor make any player character equal to a +4/+5/+6 geared PC without any effort except gaining a certain level, the MoMF forms need to be toned down from the official monsters' stats.

                Also note that many monsters use the dexterity score of the PC in his original form. As such, dexterity is probably the most beneficial stat for MoMFs to increase. If your druid has 24 unbuffed dex, so will your adult red dragon (as opposed to 10).


                I'm OK with looking at balance of various forms and making more forms viable across the board, but within reason.

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                • #9
                  I know for druid forms (all of them) your STR, CON, and DEX are all adjusted to the monster sheet.

                  Only WIS, INT, CHA stay the same.

                  This could be different with MoMF.

                  The 10d6 breath weapon takes a round to use, and allows an Attack of Opportunity, and with the dragon's abysmal AC, almost guarnatees a free hit.

                  The problem with gear boosting stats is that many of our items do not cross over to forms, so its pointless to get them. The forms + spells have to make up for them. I have damage reduction bracers that do nothing when I shift.

                  Natural weapons suffer a big hit in the fact that they are just natural - no silver, no cold iron, no adamantine - so we cannot bypass any damage reduction.

                  Originally posted by Kaeldorn View Post
                  without any effort except gaining a certain level, the MoMF forms need to be toned down from the official monsters' stats.
                  There is effort involved, namely - joining a very, very small faction and Roleplaying to get a DM granted feat and sticking with that roleplay. When you compare this class to others who get DM attained feats, this is by far the weakest.

                  It's a dragon. It's supposed to be powerful, and scary. Right now, it's a bit of a joke.

                  I'm all for MoMF getting at least 1/2 Spellcasting progression, but even then, it wouldn't even be close to 'op' or 'power built' or 'cheesy/munchkin'. It would be on par with other level 20s.
                  Originally posted by ThePaganKing
                  So, the roguethree bootlickers strike again.

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                  • #10
                    I know for druids your STR, CON, and DEX are all adjusted to the monster sheet.
                    Your knowledge is wrong

                    If you have **** in that field on the 2da sheet, it uses the score of the PC for that physical stat. This is the case for dragons and most giants, as well as some other monsters.

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                    • #11
                      The druid retains her mental ability scores (Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma) while shapeshifted into these forms. However, her physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution) are over-written by the form's statistics as follows

                      From the NWN2 Wiki. My dexterity also lowers when i shift into certain forms from 12 to an 8.

                      Does it have be an insane DEX score, or is this solely a MoMF/Sundren thing?
                      Originally posted by ThePaganKing
                      So, the roguethree bootlickers strike again.

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                      • #12
                        Come to think of it, I think I was mistaken. It's actually the other way around.. if the score says ****, it uses the creature template's base score as its base instead of the value listed in the 2da. That'd be 10 dex for all dragon forms.

                        The 2da data essentially overrides the creature templates in the module.

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                        • #13
                          Ok.. Still I can use all my buffs in dragon form, and any level 8+ fighter can kick my ass. Just ask Xaayne. When he was level 9 or so he took out my fully buffed level 17 toon in dragon form ((which updated wiki states as the highest dragon before 22, and there is a difference between the tiny dragons and the big one I get now))

                          Yes, the forms give feats and such. But that means nothing when even buffed with imp mage armor shield of faith etc. I have AC the same my level 12 fighter with only combat expertise up. Not to mention that the highest AB I can get with cleric buffs and my buffs is still well below 30.. Very few buffs, short duration, low AC, low AB... Unless I want to stay only in Beholder form and crash myself and everyone else in the area 9 times out of 10, at level 17 no form is worth using in combat.

                          I would like to see these forms become useful. Scaling DC's on mindflayer powers ((Static DC of 14-15? I think)) Enough AC not to be worthless, again a look at why many spells don't stack with the Base AC.

                          Its DM controlled and to be honest the way it is, it is only worth it to take the class if you never plan on getting into a combat situation.

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                          • #14
                            Your dragon almost killed Xaayne and a bunch of legionnaires had to save him. He still got way furthur than he should have, though.
                            Xaayne Zek: The man with no name.

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                            • #15
                              The beholder form is pretty damn powerful.
                              Originally posted by Satoshi
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                              Originally posted by Cornuto
                              Glad everyone's being extra fucking ridiculous today.

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