Zone of Revelation reveals too much?

[Philosopher]

I noticed that Zone of Revelation pulls people out of stealth.

This seems about the lamest thing ever. From what I understood, the only counters to legitimate stealth on this server was good old fashioned spot and listen. This single spell nullifies the skill completely and utterly without a save, though spell resistance can try (though most sneakers don't actually have SR).

I've been looking around for a description of the actual pnp version of Zone of Revelation, but so far I am having no luck finding it. I am not sure the real spell even pulls sneakers out of stealth, and even if it did, I'd say we shouldn't have that here.

I believe this is a recent change. Back when the spell worked normally, it didn't pull people out of stealth. Then it got bugged and wouldn't work at all. When it was fixed, it now pulls people out of stealth.

This spell basically ruins the stealth mechanic entirely and only serves to make Clerics and Favored Souls stronger.

I'm lobbying that the spell is changed to not remove a sneaker from stealth. Invisibility and Etherealness only.

Thoughts?

[Cornuto]

Trying to find a PnP version as well.

[TakenByTheStormX]

This might be applicable if spot and listen were a class skill for everyone, but it's not. Rogues max their hide/move silently and they get a dex bonus to it too, aka, a level 20 fighter and a level 20 rogue, which probably has a ton of hide/move silently gear, the rogue will never be spotted even if the fighter has put in as many points as they can. I've seen Lilene harass a group of people by just standing around in stealth and watching them freak out, because not one of the like 15 people there could actually see her. On the off chance that one of those people had zone of revelation, it woulda went a little differently.

[Philosopher]

That's the whole point though. You should have to invest skills ranks in spot and listen to counter stealth.It makes the classes that get it counter-thieves, and is completely fair. This one sixth level spell rips the skill apart with no counter. If you wanna spot sneakers, then you gotta invest points in detection skills. Any other way just seems utterly unfair and lame.

[Cornuto]

Zone of Revelation
Divination
Level: Clr 3, Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S, DF/M
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Area: 5-ft.-radius/level emanation
Duration: 1 minute/level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes
All creatures and objects within zone of revelation’s area are
made visible. This includes invisible creatures as well as
those in coexistent planes such as the Ethereal Plane and
the Plane of Shadow. Natives of these planes do not lose
any abilities but are made simply made visible.
Zone of revelation suppresses but does not dispel invisibility,
etherealness, or other spells. Once a formerly
invisible object or creature leaves the area, it becomes
invisible again.
Arcane Material Component: A handful of dust from the
grave clothes of an undead creature.

From the manual of planes. Heh, it's not even supposed to dispel etherealness or invisibility.

[TakenByTheStormX]

What I'm saying is that there are nearly no classes that can actually spot a good rogue... They get to lololol sneak mode and hips in and out of combat at will, unapposed. Spot/listen doesn't cut it unless you have a spell to boost those. Zone of Revelation is the counter.

And yeah I'm taking into account a class with spot/listen as a class skill. That's 25 spot/listen before you add stats in, right? After it might come out around 30, I guess. There are rogues with hides in the 60s.

[Kangleton]

It doesn't make sense that it pulls a caster out of Etherealness, either. Not only is that not the PnP mechanic, but "revealing" does not entail "pulling" someone between planes.

In reference to the stealth thing, I don't think anything should counter stealth other than spot/listen. I mean, there are a lot of methods to actually become immune to sneak/death attack, and a lot of ways to kill a Rogue-type. The people with access to this spell really need something to fear, as they can already thoroughly stomp most stealthers. Clerics and Wizards are doing just fine as it is, and are traditionally on the top of the food-chain anyways.

[FoogooFish]

As someone who plays a character with Hide/MS and a very high Listen skill... I have no problems with Zone of Revelation. A cleric would have to prepare the spell in advance; a favored soul would have to sacrifice another good spell to take it. There has to be thought going into the decision - just like a character put thought into being a stealther.

The only reason Emiliana can detect stealthers is because bards get great +Listen spells. I have my base skill and spells to push the skill into the territory where most stealthers have their Hide/MS (Emiliana included). I have no items that help the skill.

Seto is right: Zone of Revelation is the one counter to the lack of Spot/Listen enhancements. Leave the spell as it stands.

[Cornuto]

Not a giant fan of this spell, but I'll say again what I've said on the staff forums. There needs to be a way for people who do spot stealthed characters to point them out to the rest of the group.

If it were PnP a DM could pretty easily say: Yeah, there's a guy pointing at you and telling everyone your exact location. You get a -50 situational modifier to your hide skill.

[Lothoir]

Not to mention the many spells in PnP that allow the caster to detect anything within 30 ft of them by giving them Blindsense. Those spells don't exist in NWN2 so Zone of Revelation is a fine counter.

It also doesn't help when stealthers abuse the system so much: Transitioning in and out of areas if they don't have HiPS, or using HiPs during the day or within radius of a light spell. They can't be reported because we can't see them, and those that can see them are other rogues except for the odd druid here or there, which sees them walking normally.

I have a level 20 ranger with a maxed spot and listen, but he still only has the barest of chances to spot a sneaker because his scores are only 25 wheras the abundance of stealth gear allows for scores upwards of 40, meaning even with a natural 20 on my end and a 1 on the others I have no chance of seeing them ever.

I'm also for it pulling people out of etherealness for the simple reason that there is no other way to engage an ethereal opponent. In PnP you could easily assume ethereal form yourself, along with the rest of your party, and continue the fight as though it were no big deal. AOE spells will work in the game, but you can't target the opponent directly which means if they keep moving they can dodge all of your spells with impunity, moreso if they have a speed increase.

[Cornuto]

I'd propose perhaps the following as compromise:
1. Short duration: 1 Rd/2 levels or something to that effect.
--- Would make it reactionary rather than preventative. You'd need to first know that there's a stealthed charactered somewhere in the area before you fire it off. If a stealthed character gives away his presence, he's basically blown his shot anyway.
2. Add a VFX: Makes it easier to avoid.
3. Make if available to wizards. (F&*K clerics.)
4. Remove the ability to cancel etherealness.
5. Adjust the size of the AoE (maybe, I'm not sure what it is at the moment)
6. Add a gold cost to it (I've seen people spamming it around lately for no reason at all.)

[Philosopher]

Cornuto's above compromise works for me, though I'd still allow it to break Etherealness, as Lothoir has very good points on it.

[FoogooFish]

Cornuto's above compromise works for me, though I'd still allow it to break Etherealness, as Lothoir has very good points on it.

I like the compromise as well. I will say that I think #6 is redundant given #1, though. The only character I have even seen casting it is Seto's FS, and the majority of those castings have been at night, at the Crossroads, where known sneaky vampires like to take their casual night strolls and/or monologue.

[glaes]

Take it away from every class, but paladin. Done. Fixed. Story's over.

[Kaizen]

this spell needs to GTFO of the Cleric/FS spellist, those fuckers have everything. A cleric/FS who complains about not being able to see a rogue or any other Hide/MS makes me lol when things like persistant and extended Body of Undeath and Stone Body are around.

In reference to the stealth thing, I don't think anything should counter stealth other than spot/listen. I mean, there are a lot of methods to actually become immune to sneak/death attack, and a lot of ways to kill a Rogue-type. The people with access to this spell really need something to fear, as they can already thoroughly stomp most stealthers. Clerics and Wizards are doing just fine as it is, and are traditionally on the top of the food-chain anyways.

On a different note: Would it be possible to script one of those general feats (like charge, densive mode, assist etc etc) where it simply just breaks stealth on someone?

You can't target someone you can't see, but if you do see them - you can target them, hit the feat, break the stealth - point them out.