On In-game Death.

[FoogooFish]

As someone who played Necrosis, I can say that I loved the system as well.

[JotunWarrior]

The main thing that was great about the Necrosis system:

Dying in a party->You have the option of respawning, losing only 10 vitality, and (I think) respawning where you died.

Dying alone-> You respawn at the temple, losing 30 vitality.

Love it.

[Talleyman99]

any time you ad somthing ther could = perming you also get greifing. Not everoyn stays IC and when there toons die some tike it personaly Also this is Neverwinter nothing ins balanced everything is falling apart :P Supper sneaking assassin desides he wants you permed he comes after you x number of times. You can spot him you cant stop him your permed he laughs walks away.

Take Death as something more then a respawn does not ahve to = perm. take away the bank. You cant store your gold away. Well you die you loose a lot of gold you die lots you loose all your gold this = to be carful cause with out gold I can not get gear, adventure or cast spells. But this can be replaced easly enough.

Also make it so all pvp is subduel combat. That why everyone is fighting to knocked out. Once they are knocked out this opens op places for more Rp. Beat up the bad guy hey he's beaten take him in. Oh eh's goe a magic way out sweet he gets away with out crasy prsion break outs nonsence. Or should a death be needed then and only then can it be done.

[DM_Acorn]

There was a system somewhat like that on the old Necrosis server. Had a seperate resource system called 'vitality' that dropped whenever you died and very slowly regenerated over time. Die too much in too short a timespan and you were automatically perm'd.

I like this thought from Kajae.

I dislike the idea that players can willy nilly perm another players toon. Say you are walking down the road and see a stealthed assassin, lucky roll on your part (or not so lucky) as he just sets you to hostile and kills you with two clicks.

Granted this is totally something that can happen IRL. BUT I don't see a good place for it in a game.

I think that incentive/reward for good RP (eg. allowing your characters to be perm'd) could go a long way in getting the community to accept and internalize the concept.

Talley adds a good point. When one of your characters gets killed by another player, the FIRST thing that pops into everyone's mind is: If I had my UberX-level-toon, that guy would so be dead! What separates good RPers from bad, is whether or not they act on it. This is griefing sure, but hard to prove and hard to enforce I think.

[Kaizen]

There's a distinct difference between 'griefing' and RPing out CvC, and the line is very easy to distinguish.

But this will also reinforce more realistic RP interactions. Maybe my level 5 Banite won't mouth off the epic level paladin with 30 charisma and known Warden of Wrath because death actually has consequences now.

In fact, Paladins would most assuredly suffer the most from a death system such as this. Which will make them all the more BA.

[Darkened Skies]

Mkay, this thread got quite long and in-depth so I'm just going to address one point from UW's original post: You keep saying that people going out grinding detracts from RP. That's very much your own opinion. I've witnessed and gone along on many, many so called "grinds" where some of the best RP I've ever seen occurs.

What's so interesting about standing at a campfire talking about the things that are going on with the world? Why do you think this is a more valid state of RP that people going out there, taking risks, doing the deed and getting rewarded for it? What's so unrealistic about risking life and limb out in the field? If you feel it's unrealistic that people can get up and fight again after they've been "killed" then perhaps by your own insinuation, we should just remove the respawn system altogether and have an instant perma?

The death system isn't there for realism, it's there entirely as a way to stop people losing their characters every time they die. Holding someone's hand and giving them repeated safety nets to ensure their actions have no risk or consequence (or at least significantly less) has never been what Sundren's about. We've always had a "risk vs reward" mentality, if you don't want to risk death, then don't go out there.

While that's been said, I do still agree that perma-death should be a much more real and feared option. It's tiresome watching people throw themselves into a fight with absolutely no sense of consequence.

As it's already been pointed out by Saulus, we're already working on an update to the death system, but let me be clear: We won't be catering to soloers. We never have, and we likely never will. Even on the Sundren info page while the game is loading, it specifically says that Sundren is directed towards party-based adventure, and that's the way it will stay.

[Dirty Goblin]

I played on Legacy for a bit where you got 3 chances to die before permadeath,

I rarely died, I was more careful about grinding, and while I played a barbarian asshat, I actually thought before I pushed things into CvC.

Now, the system ya'll are talking about seems to give me leeway, and sounds pretty awesome. At least from my experience with Legacy's death system, it's not as scary as it sounds. Few people get permakilled because most people interact more carefully and thoughtfully when placed in dangerous situations.

[Talleyman99]

Hmm another note about any system where it's x number of times and your done Is some of the areas on Sudren are hard, I like this means you ahve to party up that is a great thing. have to have tactics works as a group and should be Rping. Now that said your out on your adventure and oops the cleric drops party wipes 1 death down. the next day you try again. the tank drops you die death 2 oops no ones fault but darn i'm almost permed.

Others Ideas I've head about death. Temple raise always cost you a level. Raise dead always cost you as much as curent temple raise in xp and reseraction is a very toned down xp loss. but always a loss always. always loose gold always loose xp. Then death is Always costing you. once it'a aways costing you people will think about it more.

I also find people who say they want perma death most are those who care th least about there toon in the end. ((love you blurry but your the example)) He plays a million toons for no long then 5 min at a time so why would he care is one does forever? Some poeple enjoy there Rp or always eing that bad guy that cackles and will be back later just saying

[Dirty Goblin]

I also find people who say they want perma death most are those who care th least about there toon in the end. ((love you blurry but your the example)) He plays a million toons for no long then 5 min at a time so why would he care is one does forever? Some poeple enjoy there Rp or always eing that bad guy that cackles and will be back later just saying

I see this as a bit of an overgeneralization but that's just me.

I grow uber fond of my pc's and while I may rage for five minutes about being perm'd, In the end I lol about it and think it was not that bad.

If I'm for perming a pc and don't care about said pc, I don't bother with asking for an epic death. I just lawl and suicide the pc, because once the pc stops being fun there's no point in playing.

Anyway, the bit about people being for permakilling, caring nothing about their pc's is pretty irrelevant since they're the minority.

[roguethree]

I also find people who say they want perma death most are those who care th least about there toon in the end.

For every blurry, there's a me. I play 1.5 characters, and I <3 permadeath. What I find is that the people who want permadeath are the people who appreciate the immense depth it adds to role play, adventuring, and conflict.

On topic, yes, it'd be nice if death had stricter consequences, though you can't apply punishments for CvC - the greatest offender for the trivialization of death - when you have ECL +8s running around.

[FoogooFish]

I've played on three permadeath servers, and the RP I had at those places is very memorable to me because it was a Big Deal™ when someone who had been involved in the social community bit the dust.

I do wish that CvC had some type of consequence. After a time, the same old battles between the same old characters gets boring. Oh, Dain and Clive are duking it out again? Yawn. It does not matter who wins, because both of them will be back tomorrow to do the same thing. Nothing really changes except for the tally mark that is added to one side or the other.

[Vaelek]

On topic, yes, it'd be nice if death had stricter consequences, though you can't apply punishments for CvC - the greatest offender for the trivialization of death - when you have ECL +8s running around.

Which you just happen to have the ability to oneshot.
Can't get over griping about this still, when it's been proven Dain is the real menace.

I had my oldest character perma'd awhile back, and I've been character jumping since.
Do I resent the DMs for deciding it was time for him to go?
Not in the least. It made the character's actions far more interesting, and I can honestly say I thoroughly enjoyed the last bouts of RP with that character more than I had any number of the sessions before it.
I lost a character I worked on for about two, three years, but it was great RP in the process. Can't say I had any other wishes for 'em but to try and provide that.

I do actually agree with Dain though.
As much as I appreciate the realism perma-death gives, CvC punishments are rarely very fair, especially with the way we have things set up now. While he might be defending the poor citizens vampires'll take a bite into, personally, I'm defending the poor innocent vampires he'll be snacking on with his afternoon tea.

[Dirty Goblin]

I dunno, there's not much risk to playing anything on Sundren. Especially if you dont have to worry about dm perma.

[GodBeastX]

The irony is that PVP actually happened ALOT less in a permapossible environment. While people go "But someone can gank me!" there's an equal chance the ganker might get caught ganking or even get to a point they become wanted from it.

People started to solve their difference more realistically because there was a risk on both side and nobody wanted to die. PVP would happen once in a blue moon, but it wasn't something that couldn't be remedied by playing carefully and getting the points back over time.

To me if you KNOW an assassin is after you and you do nothing, you may as well just reroll.

Now, ONE important thing not mentioned about Necrosis is the level range was alot closer, because it took people fooooorever to level up. Literally most the server was 3 - 8 range for levels. It's a lot different when it's 3 to 20whatever range.

[UnknownSoldier]

Mkay, this thread got quite long and in-depth so I'm just going to address one point from UW's original post: You keep saying that people going out grinding detracts from RP. That's very much your own opinion. I've witnessed and gone along on many, many so called "grinds" where some of the best RP I've ever seen occurs.

What's so interesting about standing at a campfire talking about the things that are going on with the world? Why do you think this is a more valid state of RP that people going out there, taking risks, doing the deed and getting rewarded for it? What's so unrealistic about risking life and limb out in the field? If you feel it's unrealistic that people can get up and fight again after they've been "killed" then perhaps by your own insinuation, we should just remove the respawn system altogether and have an instant perma?

The death system isn't there for realism, it's there entirely as a way to stop people losing their characters every time they die. Holding someone's hand and giving them repeated safety nets to ensure their actions have no risk or consequence (or at least significantly less) has never been what Sundren's about. We've always had a "risk vs reward" mentality, if you don't want to risk death, then don't go out there.

While that's been said, I do still agree that perma-death should be a much more real and feared option. It's tiresome watching people throw themselves into a fight with absolutely no sense of consequence.

As it's already been pointed out by Saulus, we're already working on an update to the death system, but let me be clear: We won't be catering to soloers. We never have, and we likely never will. Even on the Sundren info page while the game is loading, it specifically says that Sundren is directed towards party-based adventure, and that's the way it will stay.

When I said grinding I didnt mean going on an adventure with a bunch of folks, dungeon crawling and exploring. I meant going to one place, by yourself or with another person, just to kill the mobs over and over again with little to no RP value. Because, let's face it, if every time we want to Level up we go on a full on adventure, we will never level up. So we have to grind and sort of go on that killing spree over and over to level up as we want.

Nor did I say that we all need to sit around a campfire and talk. But, there is so much more depth that can occur in an RP environment. I used to play Star Wars Galaxies, where every day there would be huge scale events going on that were organized by the players. There would be robberies and pirating raids and bar fights and all this stuff that really drew you into the environment and made it seem like things really were alive. I'm just saying that all the time people spend trying to level up, and all the time they spend waiting for a res, could be better spent.