Palemaster Spell Progression

[Kaizen]

Evil is very, very, very lonely RP. A broad spectrum of RP is what you give up for being evil.


As time goes on anyways. It generally evolves from Acceptance -> Tolerance -> Kill on Sight as time goes on, no matter how smart/sneaky you play. It just happens.


edit: In no way am I alluding to my drow. he was blatantly/openly evil.

[Urithrand]

PrCs are, and have always been a more powerful specialist path for your character to take. It follows the same logic as a red wizard - learning a narrower spectrum makes you much better at things in that narrower spectrum.

Being a palemaster comes with some hefty drawbacks RP-wise, and makes your character at the *very least* socially unacceptable, up to potentially KoS very quickly. They will rarely if ever have a suitable party to go play with the monsters, particularly as most of the evils on the server seem to be level 20.

[BedlamX]

Personally, I think Pale Master is a bit underpowered. I wouldn't mind seeing a 7/10 progression put in. Full progression with the bonuses and immunities they get is a bit out there. If you could hit lvl 30, the PM is fine as is. I had a bad mofo of one on another server, but he only got really good around lvl 25. With the lower levels here, a bit of a buff to spell progression shouldn't be too bad.

As to using RP difficulties as a "downside" or something you have to sacrifice to adjust any class to be tougher, I say tough. If that were the case, the Thayan PRCs should be buffed to high hells. I think the only group more ostracized than Thayans are the vamps...and they get uber bonuses. So the only thing a wizard gives up in order to take PM is some casting levels, the familiar progression, and the bonus feats. The PM abilities more than make up for everything but the caster levels and even then, a 15th level caster that is immune to a butt-load of things and has extra AC and HP is pretty damned sweet. Using the fact that it is tougher to find people to RP with should never be considered for changing the power level of a class. All that would do is make all the anti-social (at least the forced ones) become the most powerful and, therefore, more desireable. Then you get an "RP" server full of anti-social power houses that wipe out all the "mundane" classes that can actually interact with each other.

[Kangleton]

Full progression. It's not any more OP than any of the other OP casting classes already implemented that either don't, or barely stunt casting progression while still offering a lot of abilities.

Look at the wiki.

[Urithrand]

I'll drink to that!

[BedlamX]

Full progression. It's not any more OP than any of the other OP casting classes already implemented that either don't, or barely stunt casting progression while still offering a lot of abilities.

Look at the wiki.

Since you insist (Arcane ones only and I skipped Mystic Theurge since it is overpowered):

Arcane Scholar: Full progression, +2 save vs spells, and Empower, Maximize, Quicken spells take up a slot one lower than normal

Arcane Trickster: Full progression (but lose 3 caster levels due to the rogue class skills needed, so a lvl 17 caster), Pilfer Magic 3x daily, Sneak attack progression like rogue (only at even levels instead of odd and they now have low AB progression making them less likely to score a sneak attack), and Impromptu sneak attack 3x daily (bypasses DEX AC bonus)

Eldritch Knight: Full progression (other than level 1 and the 1 level of fighter you really need to meet the requirements and make any use of the class), High AB progression

Mage Killer: Full progression, improved fort and reflex saves, augment summoning and spell focus feats.

Red Wizard: Full progression, Has to be a non-good human (and be OK'd by Saulus), enhanced Specialization of the main school (but loses access to another school of magic spells), +4 save vs. spells from the specialized school, +5 spell power, and gets 2 wizard bonus feats

Pale Master: 1/2 progression (15 caster max at 20), non-good (but any race), increases HD to d6, +6 natural AC bonus, Animate dead 1x daily, Darkvision, Summon Undead 1x daily, +4 FORT saves, Paralysis touch 3x daily, Immune to hold, paralysis, stun, and crit hits (this still make you immune to sneaks like it used to?), Sumon Greater Undead 1x daily, and Death Touch 3x daily.


So, sorry...Pale Master is MUCH more powerful than any of the other arcane PRCs even with the 7/10 progression. Full progression added to the other bonuses would make a full wizard with more AC, HP, and immunities than any other that can summon 3 undead free each day and paralyze/kill opponents 3x daily (assuming this is per rest, so more than that really). The Scholar, Mage Killer, and Red Wizard are the only ones that have true, full spell progression among the arcane PRCs. All others are at least 1 level short of full progression. Arcane Trickster is 3 short, so only 2 above the current Pale Master with nowhere near the benefits.

[Kangleton]

I said "casting classes", not arcanists. Thanks for the big post, though.

[Urithrand]

Not to mention that Palemaster doesn't have full spell progression, neither do we want it to. It should have no caster level at 1st level.

[roguethree]

Full progression. It's not any more OP than any of the other OP casting classes already implemented that either don't, or barely stunt casting progression while still offering a lot of abilities.

Arcanists are casting classes, so his example works. He's illustrated his point quite well.

[Kangleton]

Read everything all over again. If you still don't understand why what you said is irrelevant, I'll walk you through it. Promise.

[Catastrophe]

Keep it cool in this thread too guys, please.

[BedlamX]

I said "casting classes", not arcanists. Thanks for the big post, though.

*sighs*

I did the arcane classes to show that Pale Master is quite a bit above the rest of the same kind of classes. I did not compare them to divine casters because they should not be treated the same. If you would prefer to match classes to classes, I'd be happy to run through how overpowered EVERY caster class is to EVERY non-caster class...ad nauseum.

Apples to apples, Pale Master is much more powerful than any of the current PRCs of the same type. Divine casters are a different matter that should be addressed elsewhere, not by buffing certain others to make them closer to their power level.

But...here goes:
Combat Medic: Full spell progression, low AB progression, d6 instead of d8 HD, requires 13 DEX for Dodge, Healing bonuses (not very good ones, either)

Master of Radience: Full progression except lvl 1, Radient Aura that grants Searing Light and Sunbeam 3x daily for 1 minute each

Master of Shraouds: Full progression except lvl 1, Extra Turning, Summon Undead 3 + CHA mod daily, and undead summons get +2 to hit and damage

Sacred Fist: Full progression except 1 lvl monk and 2 other levels, +3 AC bonus, Fast Movement, Monk unarmed damage for SF levels, adds SF lvl + WIS mod to damage 2x daily, Uncanny Dodge, +4 AC and saves as well as 25% SR 1x daily, Can not use any weapons

Shadowbane Stalker: Full progression except 1 lvl rogue and 2 others, detect evil, +8 hide/MS 2x daily, +6 search and sense motive, +3d6 sneak attack by lvl 9, +4 AC 1x daily for 7 rounds, +2d6 divine vs. evil 2x daily for 1 + 1/2 CHA mod rounds

Warpriest: 1/2 progression, +1 to hit 10' radius, +10 save vs fear and mind effects for 5 rounds, remove Fear 1xdaily, Mass Cure Light Wounds 1x daily, Fear Aura 20' 1x daily (DC 10+WP lvl+CHA mod), Battletide 1x daily, haste 3xdaily, Mass Heal 1x daily, gives allies +20 HP 1x daily at a cost of having half movement for the duration

Stormlord: Nothing...class is major overpowered...period

Doomguide: Full progression, Improved Turning, Extra Turning 2 & 3, Divine vengeance, Empower Turning, Immune to negative level, Weapons get ghost touch, undead bane & disruption, Cancels Etherealness 1x daily, Immune to energy drain and death spells

Dreadmaster: Full progression, enemies are -4 save vs fear 50' radius, Immune to fear, +2 diplomacy and gather intelligence, Summon Cohort (3...no idea how this works, though), Craft Wand feat, Have any follower take most of his damage 2x daily, Special Cohort (2...again...no idea how that works)

None of these seem to have any special abilities that make them more powerful than a Pale Master and only a handful have truely full spell progression. Now, if you are just saying divine casters are overpowered with full spell progression, that is a debate for another topic, I think. But, unless you can point out the glaring overpower parts of any of these PRCs (other than Stormlord), I think this shows that PM are not nearly as underpowered as previously claimed.

Feel free to tell me whatever else I have missed here as I was in a hurry to get this all typed up and I type slow.

[Kangleton]

I'm not willing to put in nearly as much work as you to argue this. You may win be default.

[Seheren]

While we are at it... Spell progression for the horribly nerfed Master of Many Forms? I mean ANY spell progression.


I would kill for 7/10 progression.

[Urithrand]

OK, so to bring this thread back on track, I did some research. As stated in Libris Mortis:

To qualify to become a pale master, a character must fulfi ll all
the following criteria.
Alignment: Any nongood.
Skill: Knowledge (religion) 8 ranks.
Feat: Skill Focus (Knowledge [religion]).
Spells: Able to cast command undead and vampiric touch as
arcane spells.
Special: The candidate must have spent three or more days
locked in a tomb with animate undead. This contact may be
peaceful or violent. A character who is slain by the undead and
later raised still meets the requirement, although the resulting
level loss may delay compliance with other prerequisites.

We don't have command undead afaik in the game but it would be perfectly possible to add all the other requirements to the PrC.