Palemaster Spell Progression

[Urithrand]

Was chatting about this one with Kael yesterday so I thought I'd throw it out there for discussion.

In PnP (and I believe every other D&D game) the Palemaster receives full spell progression with the exception of level 1. The shoddy spell progression of PMs in NWN2 means that as a PrC it sucks and no-one ever wants to play them. I played one on Sundren a few years back and he blew so hard I deleted him.

They don't have enough HP to play melee, (and none of their resistances really make much difference in this) they don't have enough AB to play ranged attack, and their spellcasting is stunted so much that they become essentially useless as a caster. Even by level 20, they will only *just* reach level 8 spells if they're a wizard. As a sorcerer they will be limited to level 7.

I'm all for making the prerequisites a little higher (and perhaps making them DM-granted only) but please oh please give us back good Palemasters?

*flutters eyes*

[Thief Of Navarre]

What are pre-reqs in Tome and Blood?

[Urithrand]

Well the one I remember mostly is that they have to spend a day and a night locked in a tomb filled with undead. Hence why I suggest they would maybe be DM granted only.

[Urithrand]

This is something I pulled off the NWN2 forums.

Here's a list of what the Pale Master gets in NWN 2:

Spellcasting: Every other level
Boneskin: +2 natural armor @ 1 and every 4 levels after that
Animate Dead: Summons an undead minnion. Upgrades to class-feat versions of Create Undead and Create Greater Undead.
Undead Graft: Paralyze opponents. Upgrades to offer a death-attack, eventually useable 3 times a day each. Static DC as far as I can tell.
Darkvision: As per the ability
Deathless Vigor: 3 extra HP
Tough as Bone: Immunity to Holds, Paralyze, and Stuns
Deathless Mastery: Immune to Critical Hits

What the Pale Master gets in 3.5 Table Top D&D:

Spellcasting: At every level except the first in the PrC
Undead Armor Affinity: Reduced Arcane Spell Failure chance when wearing undead armor. Roughly comprable to Bone Skin.
Control Undead:: Similiar to the spell, but requires a melee touch attack and has no save, and is limited by the Pale Master's highest Arcane Caster level (which is much higher for TT)
Darkvision As the ability
Deathless Vigor: Grants a +4 bonus to Fortitude saves against all effects save those that also work on objects.
Undead Graft: Grants a +4 STR bonus. Has Paralyzing Touch, Weaknening Touch, Degenerative Touch, Destructive Touch, and Deathless Master's Touch. Each use of the Graft's abilities requires a minimum level in the PrC to access and can only be used upto 3 times per day, total. Save DC scales (10 + Pale Master class levels + CHA bonus).
Tough as Bone: Grants immunity to disease, nonlethal damage, and stunning.
Deathelss Mastery: Grants immunity to poison, sleep, effects, paralysis, death effects, critical hits, ability drain, and energy drain, as well as damage damage to physical ability scores (STR, DEX, CON).
Animate Dead: As per the spell
Undead Cohort: As per the Undead Leadership feat, but only grants a Cohort, which is an undead creature with an ECL at least 2 levels lower than you.

I wouldn't expect all of these things to be changed cause the general concensus is that PM is a bit OP in PnP but at least fixing the spell progression would make it playable.

[Thief Of Navarre]

I agree, only good can come from it! I personally have only ever taken it as a one shot for the +2AC bonus.

[Urithrand]

I agree, only good can come from it! I personally have only ever taken it as a one shot for the +2AC bonus.

As do the vast majority lol

[Dragor]

All for this...it opens up a Char Idea I've had for about 6 months now...*Evil Laughter fading into the distance*

[Silas North]

1/2 progression is too weak, even with the nifty bonuses.
Full progression is over the top, especially now that the summon was made useful

A good medium would be something like what the Sacred Fist has. Progression at all levels except 3,6,9 would be nice. It makes so that a Wizard 10/ Pale Master 10 could still get lvl 9 spells, full CL with one simple feat, and all the other goodies that come with the PM, including that always present immunity to sneaks and crits. Because of their potential, one more feat as a prereq would not be a bad idea, though it should be one of the 'meh' ones rather than the completely useless ones.

The only thing that makes me iffy about this is the lack of a choice of Sorcerer 10/ Pale Master 10 if you wanted 9th level spells.

[Kaeldorn]

Agreed with Silas.

The extra AC the PrC gives in NWN2 is pretty damn good. Full progression might be a bit much, but 7/10 seems fair.

[Urithrand]

There's really not much point then. An extra 2 levels of spellcasting really doesn't make much difference either way.

[RexyTheWereweasel]

I actually think they will, since another two more levels of spellcasting will bring wizards to 9th level spells by level 20, and sorcerers to 8th level spells.

[Urithrand]

I agree that full spell progression would make this class somewhat powerful, perhaps Silas's suggestion would be best. 7 out of 10 levels get spellcasting but the other benefits stay intact?

[Seheren]

Why not agree on just 8 out of 10 for spell progression. That way a Sorc would get level 9 spells at level 20. That doesnt seem over the top to me..

[Urithrand]

Even better. Personally I would just like to see it implemented as PnP dictates, but I'm flexible.

[roguethree]

I'd love to see Palemaster made useful, but in such a way that it's not just a huge upgrade for evil wizards. Yes, it's for evil pcs, but I always thought of prestige classes as specializing your character, not just making it super sweet. What would one give up in becoming a Palemaster (other than healthy good looks)?