Cutting the two-weapon fighters some slack

[Lothoir]

On another note ...
@Doubtful about the my number wang coment. If your character sucks people tend to not want to group with you. Thus numbers matter in any game. As I have already gotten this comment from someone who enjoys the RP aspect of the game. So numbers always matter even in a RP server. If you suck, you suck and thats all there is too it. You're marked as less useful etc.

In all of my time playing not just Sundren but any NWN2 PW I have never excluded or been excluded from a group due to a shitty build. the two highest non-rp reasons for being excluded from a group are being a tard that can't work with a group and charging into spawns to die repeatedly; or being so low or so high in level that your presence gimps everyone elses xp.

Take out those two issues and aside from roleplay reasons you're always going to find a group. You might not get the good buffs when the casters have to ration them between the better damage dealers, but that's just more reason to stay in the back and 'protect' the casters.

[wangxiuming]

In all of my time playing not just Sundren but any NWN2 PW I have never excluded or been excluded from a group due to a shitty build. the two highest non-rp reasons for being excluded from a group are being a tard that can't work with a group and charging into spawns to die repeatedly; or being so low or so high in level that your presence gimps everyone elses xp.

Take out those two issues and aside from roleplay reasons you're always going to find a group. You might not get the good buffs when the casters have to ration them between the better damage dealers, but that's just more reason to stay in the back and 'protect' the casters.

Same here. Even if your build is terrible, you can at least contribute to the body count required for the bonus XP too! (or wait ... does that still exist?)

[Root]

First and foremost I do enjoy RP, and not all character are as the stereo types go for a race. Look at the poorly written adventures of Drizzt Do'Urden.

The very fact that Drizzt is a good Drow is one of the main reason he's disliked.

Defend it all you like, and I'm sure you have many valid points, but when it all boils down, if you chose a race/class for power instead of choosing for RP, it will show.

And I disagree on the 'If you're not a powerbuild, you won't get groups' aspect. Anyone ignoring people who want to group or avoiding grouping with those who don't have powerbuilds should have their dice taken off them until they learn to play nice. And then sent to WoW.

I shall be here with my broskis, the halfling barbarian wielding an axe bigger than him with massive penalties for doing so, the half-orc wizard who whilst losing 1 to his DC's and bonus spells, reminds me of Beast from X-Men, and the Cleric of Ilmater who has never memorised a spell without the healing descriptor and wears cloth.

being a tard that can't work with a group and charging into spawns to die repeatedly

You mean being a barbarian?

[[DM] Grinning Death]

Now that I didn't know! Wow what a crock. Glad you told me before I even tried to make an IB.

On another note ...
@Doubtful about the my number wang coment. If your character sucks people tend to not want to group with you. Thus numbers matter in any game. As I have already gotten this comment from someone who enjoys the RP aspect of the game. So numbers always matter even in a RP server. If you suck, you suck and thats all there is too it. You're marked as less useful etc.

I'm not quite sure where you got this information, but it is certainly faulty. Some of the better RP characters out there have used a non-maxed out build (i.e. 'sucky') and have used group xp to level. As for the copious amount of logical fallacies within your statement, I'd suggest you review and revise accordingly.

That being said, this is my second request that the tone be kept respectful and constructive. Instead of overusing the wrongly employed verb of 'suck', I would suggest phrasing it instead as 'unable to compete with the more powerful class combinations' or 'non-maximized for damage output'.

Third warning will result in a lock. Thank you!

[Kaybrie]

The very fact that Drizzt is a good Drow is one of the main reason he's disliked.

Drizz't isn't hated because he's a good aligned drow, he's hated because of the cult following of good drow RPer's he created. Most people who I've met who hate the concept of good aligned Drow can still agree that there wasn't a lot inherently wrong with the books. Especially when you take into account the setting.

If your character sucks people tend to not want to group with you.

I feel bad for the player who excludes others from their group on a server where party size doesn't decrease EXP, but infact INCREASES it, based on the fact that their build isn't SUPER1337H4X0R. But given that's never happened to me in spite of all the horribly built character's I've historically made, perhaps you should re-evaluate your data?

[BedlamX]

Yep...definitely disagree on the whole idea of no one partying with non-uber builds. If that was the case, not one of my toons would ever have had and contact with groups. Zap, no matter how much fun he is to RP, is about the worst Arcane Trickster build ever. But he is always welcome in groups cuz he makes them laugh...a lot. My 3 dual wielders (Ursus, Fonkin, and Sgaile)? One is a str-based almost pure fighter (3 Thayan Knight levels), one is the dreaded invisible blade (though I threw in SD so he could be the ultimate in invisible), and one is a ranger/rogue. Not one of these builds is "powerbuilt", yet I have never had a problem getting into a party (as long as there is more than a couple people on and the group happens to be in my level range and basic alignment). Unless you want to hang with the "my leet dude pwns your noob ass" types, you will have a tough time finding a group of powerbuilds on Sundren. The vast majority of us make toons that sound "fun"...and then try to get them as optimized as possible without going totally nuts with the number crunching.

[Seheren]

This is very late in the mix, behind the convo since I just read the first couple pages... BUT, I have a Ranger/Barbarian/Fighter/FB out there and with wep. spec, IPA, Imp FE, FE, supreme power attack, and all that jazz, I can tell you its possible to hit 2 hand damages of 70 a whack and 200+ crits with a great axe, or the spear version I have ((With a very nice +2 +1d8 physical +1d8 crit spear)) Pretty much same damage with decent AB. As was stated Favored power attack does only add +6 to IPA, but with +1 from FE +3 Imp FE and all the other modifiers for all things added in, the damage is huge. A viable fighter, especially with any buffs.

[Kangleton]

Fighters are OP.

[Torgar]

I've yet to see someone try it out, but Bards make rather good duel wielders. They have all the spells to buff their AB to the point of hitting as often as they want, and with inspire courage, you can really have some solid damage hits, both main and off hand, without needing a stupidly high strength. And no group I've ever run with has EVER turned away a bard from the group, no matter how he was built. They are, hands down, the best party class there is, and if you play a TWF bard, no matter how badly you did it and how weak you hit, you will ALWAYS find a group who wants you in with them.

[Root]

Bard's a very good choice, but they do suffer at the critical juncture of being massively feat-starved.

For one, if you pureclass bard, you want at least to have Curse Song, whilst wanting to get Extra music, Extended music, and Skill Focus Perform at later levels if there isn't enough Bard gear on the server to keep it high enough to gain bonuses.

Add on to this the massive number of feats TWF eats up (TWF, ITWF, TWD, ITWD, GTWF), and you're going to have some problems.

I'd imagine you could do some crazy nonsense with a 4 Fighter/4 Blackguard/12 Bard, but the very concept of a bard/blackguard seems a tad silly to me. That, and you'll still be feat starved since you'll want Weapon Focus > Weapons Spec and Power Attack > Cleave for Blackguard. Still, you won't need to worry so much about Perform.

Bard/Blackguard/Druid on the other hand...

[Handsomeman]

Two weapon fighters can be very effective from my point of view. Kyle Rendell(lvl 19 weapon master) and Xaayne Zek(lvl 20 berserker) both was decimated by Ursus Ahrahl(lvl 20 two weapon fighter) in 1 on 1 matches. Kyle and Xaayne are some of the server's more powerful melee heavy hitters. And as for perfect two weapon fighting, some feats are not meant to be gotten so early as lvl 21 even if in theory you can with maxed out stats and race.

[roguethree]

Disarm is a helluva feat. Effective versus another mundane fighter? Yes. Effective in a party? Not really. Will I still bring Ursus along? Hell, yeah. He's cool as shit.

[Kaybrie]

Bard's a very good choice, but they do suffer at the critical juncture of being massively feat-starved.

For one, if you pureclass bard, you want at least to have Curse Song, whilst wanting to get Extra music, Extended music, and Skill Focus Perform at later levels if there isn't enough Bard gear on the server to keep it high enough to gain bonuses.

Add on to this the massive number of feats TWF eats up (TWF, ITWF, TWD, ITWD, GTWF), and you're going to have some problems.

I'd imagine you could do some crazy nonsense with a 4 Fighter/4 Blackguard/12 Bard, but the very concept of a bard/blackguard seems a tad silly to me. That, and you'll still be feat starved since you'll want Weapon Focus > Weapons Spec and Power Attack > Cleave for Blackguard. Still, you won't need to worry so much about Perform.

Bard/Blackguard/Druid on the other hand...

Extended music and Curse song is all you'd need. You wouldn't be eating through all the two weapon fighting feats, probably just TWF and Improved. That'd get you two extra attacks at your highest and second highest AB. Otherwise Bards are pretty much Bar none the most powerful, capable class in NWN2, with more flexibility and versatility then even the legendary Cleric/Druid with the application of Bard Songs. You don't NEED these feats to be effective, that's just stacking advantages, you can build bards in entirely different ways even pure, and still dominate in most scenario's.

[BedlamX]

Like I said, if you can get all the feats (including the defensive ones and the upper level fighter-only AC feats), you can definitely do some serious damage with a 2-weapon fighter while not getting totally decimated by others. I want to say Ursus has an AC of just over 30 and his only really good defense item is his mithral full plate (+2 or 3...can't remember). Everything else is the normal +2 natural AC and deflection...and his uber starter boots with the +1 AC.

And yeah...Disarm is extremely good with teh proper build (which Ursus just happened to fit into through no planning at all). If Sundren had the Tempest PRC implemented, Ursus would have been much better even with his slightly gimped STR score to get an 18 DEX for the I2WD.

But, back to teh original posted idea: dropping the required DEX by 2 would be a godsend for STR-based 2-weapon fighters. That would have been 2 more STR points Ursus would have and that would have gotten him at least close to the other fighters out there.

[Thief Of Navarre]

I love the concept of a bard/blackguard. He can either be the big charismatic anti-paladin or the doom preaching herald with largely the same build.

I played one as a paladin of hoar. Since good and evil are a matter of perspective it didnt matter if my methods were evil if I thought what I was doing was right ~ needless to say a blast to play!