Cutting the two-weapon fighters some slack

[Kaeldorn]

Let me start off by saying I'm fully aware that the two-weapon fighting feats as they are in NWN2 are pretty close to D&D canon.

However, I find that they require too much investment and too little returns. First off, you need to actually get those feats. There's a ton of them, and it's likely you'll spend at least 4 on getting handy with that weapon in your off-hand. On top of that already heavy expense, you're going to have to sacrifice strength in order to get enough dex to get those feats at all, and you don't exactly get +8 strength items to compensate on Sundren.

Seeing how few warrior types actually go for the two-weapon path should make it pretty clear that the option is just not attractive enough in its current form. That's why I want to suggest lowering the Dex requirement of ALL two-weapon fighting feats by 2.

Two-Weapon Fighting & Two-Weapon Defense: 13
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and Improved Two-Weapon Defense: 15
Greater: 17

Perfect can remain at 21..

This slight change to cut warrior types who want to dual wield some slack would help them get closer to the effectiveness of warriors using 2 handers, with a few perks and flaws remaining, and Samurai that at least have a little bit of dex can also get access to those AC increasers.

[BedlamX]

As a 2-weapon fighter, Ursus would love this modification. Problem would be that those already doing it would need relevels to get any use out of it. Good thing is, I have only seen a small handful that actually do 2-weapon fighting with non-finessable weapons.

[Jai_V]

As someone who has spent two years trying to build a successful two-weapon fighter, I agree there's something that needs to be done. But I just don't think modding the TWF feats are it. Maybe a couple of special Sundren feats could be created to give them a little more bite. Anybody got any ideas?

[Lothoir]

http://homepage.mac.com/guyf/DnD/Att...woWeapons.html

This man speaks the truth. To Two-Weapon fight effectively you need multiple damage sources, usually from sneak attack. The Sundren craft system however precludes the normal way of just adding damage types to a weapon.

[Kaeldorn]

As someone who has spent two years trying to build a successful two-weapon fighter, I agree there's something that needs to be done. But I just don't think modding the TWF feats are it. Maybe a couple of special Sundren feats could be created to give them a little more bite. Anybody got any ideas?

Even more feats? Two-Weapon fighting already takes a ton of them.. Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting opened the door to wielding something heavy in your off-hand, and I think more feats aren't really needed (two weapon defense feats are also non-standard).

The problem isn't so much that two-weapon fighting is all that ineffective, it's just that the requirements are too high for what it offers, leaving you with very little space to further customise your character.

Biggest limitation in my opinion is that you're going to have to start off with at least 16 dexterity and then spend another 3 points on dex on levelups. Base ability scores can only be increased very sparingly, and at present you're gimping both your attack bonus and your damage unless you put absolutely all your points in both strength and dex, which leaves you with a fairly uninspired character to roleplay with.

Lowering the dexterity requirement doesn't really make dual wielding rogues or duelists any more powerful either, because they go for weapon finesse and meet the requirements anyway. The suggestion is mainly to help fighters, barbarians, paladins and multiclassed rangers to make use of the dual wield option with less drawbacks and a little bit more freedom.

[Saulus]

This is going to come off as brash but Kaeldorn, to be honest... we're still ripping out the changes you made to classes/feats that we really didn't agree with (that were also completely unnecessary).

If we are still doing that, then having the time to mess with shit like this is just out of the question. There's no one around to work on it.

It's very, very unlikely we will revisit balance on Caster vs Melee, or particular builds etc. Trying to find balance in a system where there wasn't designed to be any is a fairly futile effort.

[Saulus]

On a side note if I personally wanted to have a good two weapon fighter I would go with ranger until level 9. Add some fighter levels for weapon spec... Improved two weapon defense would be nice, and ideally I would roll that into the build.

Of course gear does in fact have a big part in its involvement but to this I say I get involved with factions! I have given away DM items surpassing most stores to members of nearly every faction, and it's almost always melee characters I do this for.

I'm sure more than a few people have a nice trinket from me for an event.

[Kaeldorn]

This is not really related to the topic at hand, but...

You are probably speaking of the increased prerequisites for some of the prestige classes with the intent to make powerbuilds harder in some cases. I don't have any problem with that, but I would appreciate it if you didn't make it sound like those changes were my 'fault' and that you now have to clean up the mess.

The original idea to make PRC's harder to get was not mine. I did agree with it, and executed it. The other option offered to me was to make the PRC's themselves weaker, and that I didn't agree with. It was clear to me that not everyone had exactly the same ideas when said prerequisite changes were internally posted and put up for discussion, but at the time I got the impression that they were still more or less agreed upon. If I was mistaken, then I'm sorry for the misinterpretation.


Anyways.. this suggestion didn't really have much to do with balance, but it was more about giving a dual wield option to warriors in a way they don't just.. well.. suck

[Saulus]

It's actually more to do with feats suddenly changing what they do, new ones, etc. Ridiculous (PC Fey) prcs

I can't blame you though for everytime someone calls me a hypocrite for having a PrC "Out of setting" (Samurai = Kara-Tur).

But this does in fact come down to balance because it alters the configuration of a dual wield warrior. I honestly think the way it is now isn't a problem: if you have the right loot.

I'm not saying it's easy... but certainly not impossible for those that desire the benefits.

[Kaeldorn]

Ok, I see your point. It might just be a bit too hard to get exactly the right loot at present if you don't go for a finesse build.

[Kaizen]

They've 'recently' put in that little store for Daggers and Knives, to help with the assassin/rogue/invis blade types with weapons and gear.


The gear is above par, but not too much. (way above the Try Tribe store, however)


They could put in a similiar store for dual wielding warriors.

[Cornuto]

I plan on adding some melee-centric gear for high-level non-casters.

[GRCrush]

They've 'recently' put in that little store for Daggers and Knives, to help with the assassin/rogue/invis blade types with weapons and gear.


The gear is above par, but not too much. (way above the Try Tribe store, however)


They could put in a similiar store for dual wielding warriors.

Hmm my little rogue got her ass totally handed to her by a duel wield ranger and I was using knives from that store. Nope dont think they need anything

[Kaizen]

I plan on adding some melee-centric gear for high-level non-casters.

<3



no homo.

[Vonjan]

Saulus is right the only way to make a perfect two weapon user would be Ranger with at least 4 classes..but you'll take penalty on the xp witch really don't matter because the role play in my opinion matter more.but one suggestion..forget the wisdom crank up the Strength and Con like Misc oh and go berserker kinda like putting jalapeņo in your tortilla.
I know i wont make sense but i like big guns on a battlefield