Cutting the two-weapon fighters some slack

[Mournas]

GameType: RolePlay

Not to imply that RP and powerful characters are mutually exclusive, but when you're into the territory of picking a Deep Gnome wielding silly combinations of weapons and classes,any notion of RP is beginning to fly out the window.

Make the character concept, then the build that gives them a bit of power without comprimising this concept. Not the other way around.


....And I feel somewhat obliged to make this point (not entirely sure I'm right, but heck, I'll try anyway)


Monk 3 Cleric 3 Sacred Fist 9 Invisible Blade 5

2 AB from Monk, 2 AB from Cleric, 6 AB from SF, 4 AB from IB.

Total AB is 14.

You're only getting three attacks with your AB anyway.

Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting, as far as I'm aware, only improves on Greater TWF if you have four or more attacks (PTWF means you get the same offhand as you do mainhand attacks, whilst GTWF gives you three offhand attacks, whilst requiring a BAB of 11)

This massive dedication to dex, dumping of feats, changing of race, and overspecialisation means that at level 23-ish, you will have a SINGLE extra attack at a -15 penalty (unless I'm mistaken and for some ungodly reason PTWF actually negates attack bonus reduction for successive attacks)

Why not just accept not getting PTWF, and focus on making your previous 7 attacks hit more, do more, and not have the disadvantage of requiring you to be an ECL/RPoTM race just for the sake of a single extra hit?

( And why couldn't an Elf be used as the base race in your build, getting rid of the ECL penalty? )

( Answer: Because nobody likes elves )

You obviously havent even looked at the Sacred Fist Class and the Invisible Blade class, they are both Full BAB progression. And if you looked at the previous statement in the Thread it talked about Perfect Two Weapon fighting and that it was also a 21Dex Requirement. I made the build SIMPLY for showing how rediculus the feats are and that it would pretty much be IMO the only TWF build that I can think of that is worth while to play. All the rest are just plain trash. A two handed fighter will pretty much win every time.

And you dont take Elves because the class is a stat intensive build. Also for RP purposes what are Deep Gnomes supposed to me? Just miners? Why wouldn't they be able to be a 3monk 3cleric 9sacred fist 5IB? Or are you telling me from first hand experiance that youre an expert on an imaginary race of people?

[[DM] Grinning Death]

Watch the tone, folks. Please keep comments constructive and rational.

Else I'll sick Cornuto on this thread, and then all y'all will feel like you just got punched in the mouth over the internet.

....And it'll probably get locked.

[Mournas]

Oh I also forgot TWF also gets rid of the -2 to attacks as well so a Deep gnome would actually have an unbuffed AB of +32(on most monsters due to size difference) and a Yaunti would be +31. That being said for a full Minute you could squeeze out another +2 from your minor buffing abilities. Though the build I made is actually different from the 3m/3c/9sf/5ib. Its 11Monk/1Cleric/3Swashbuckler/5IB Base... the 3/3/9/5 build would probably be better off as unarmed.

[Lothoir]

Favoured enemies include elves, who get in the way of your tree-slaying, orcs, who sometimes get to trees before you and must be cut down, and undead, because there's so many on the server you might as well. Also you might find an undead treant and MUST BE PREPARED.

Favored Enemy: Plants

Favored Enemy: Magical Beast (For those crossdressing wolves that eat old ladies and small girls)

[Thief Of Navarre]

Favored Enemy: Plants

Favored Enemy: Magical Beast (For those crossdressing wolves that eat old ladies and small girls)

Have you got the time mr wolf? I actually had a dwarven waraxe dual weilding iron boned ranger. Rangers get toughness for free

[Root]

Or are you telling me from first hand experiance that youre an expert on an imaginary race of people?

I'm quite knowledgeable on them, yes. Is this supposed to be bad?

Ignore it all you want, but if the setting, lore, and all that jazz mean nothing to you, why bother with the whole RP server stuff?

Suppose I missed out on the SF/IB full BAB, they always seemed Mid-style classes to me, being based off Monk/Cleric and Rogues. Clearly my knowledge is a tad rusty, as is my munchkin-fu. Suppose I should spend less time reading books and more sifting through Excel spreadsheets (because knowing real-world-useless maths and rules is cooler than knowing real-world-useless stories and information).

Point still stands. Extra attack is not worth the investment. It's hardly worth the feat. The build is having trouble with AB to start with, and at level 23, what's the point of an attack with +9 AB? My pure-damage-based, AC-be-damned Half-Orc can dodge that 90% of the time. A level 1 Dwarf who picks up Expertise can dodge that on anything but a 20 if you throw him fullplate +1 and a shield. If the attack is actually hitting your target often enough to be worth the feat, they're already going to be dying from your other main attacks due to their terrible AC.

Not to mention any dwarf on this server will laugh merrily at your inability to get past his permanent 10 DR, let alone hit him more than twice per round and then proceed to very slowly and surely chip you to death with his axe.

@Lothoir: Didn't take favoured enemy: Plants, mainly for the reason that I can't remember actually finding a single treant or shambling mound in my time here, which kind of makes me think it might be a little too self-gimping. However, extra lumberjack points to anyone that does take it. I just wouldn't, personally. That's a little further towards the willing-to-gimp-self-for-wierds-sake camp than I am, and once you start taking Favoured Enemy for Enemies that don't exist, it's a slippery slope towards Harper Scouts and pure fighters.

[Thief Of Navarre]

I'm quite knowledgeable on them, yes. Is this supposed to be bad?

Ignore it all you want, but if the setting, lore, and all that jazz mean nothing to you, why bother with the whole RP server stuff?

Suppose I missed out on the SF/IB full BAB, they always seemed Mid-style classes to me, being based off Monk/Cleric and Rogues. Clearly my knowledge is a tad rusty, as is my munchkin-fu. Suppose I should spend less time reading books and more sifting through Excel spreadsheets.

Point still stands. Extra attack is not worth the investment. It's hardly worth the feat. The build is having trouble with AB to start with, and at level 23, what's the point of an attack with +9 AB? My pure-damage-based, AC-be-damned Half-Orc can dodge that 90% of the time.


@Lothoir: Didn't take favoured enemy: Plants, mainly for the reason that I can't remember actually finding a single treant or shambling mound in my time here, which kind of makes me think it might be a little too self-gimping. However, extra lumberjack points to anyone that does take it. I just wouldn't, personally. That's a little further towards the willing-to-gimp-self-for-wierds-sake camp than I am, and once you start taking Favoured Enemy for Enemies that don't exist, it's a slippery slope towards Harper Scouts and pure fighters.



In the eyes of the people, the manly lumberjack will always win.

The only problem with the Harper scout is that we dont have it on sundren :0

Back on topic I do believe we have oversized two weapon fighting for those wishing to use medium/large weapons without being totally boned.

[BedlamX]

Again, those who say dual-wielders are useless should run across Ursus (for a str-based version) or Fonkin (for a dex-based version). And neither will have perfect 2WF (unless Fonkin somehow manages to get to 21 with his ECL penalty...then maybe).

Personally, I really never over think builds (roguethree did my only planned build in years for me, so Turin doesn't count :P ). Most of my builds really suck. Even more-so in PvP (which I really hate, by the way). But they all have their little quirks (some good, some not-so-good). But all are fun to play. It would be nice to get some kinda love for the 2 weapon fighters, but I ain't losing any sleep over it.

[roguethree]

Point still stands. Extra attack is not worth the investment. It's hardly worth the feat. The build is having trouble with AB to start with, and at level 23, what's the point of an attack with +9 AB? My pure-damage-based, AC-be-damned Half-Orc can dodge that 90% of the time.

An extra attack is always worth the investment. I'd explain it to you, but I'd need a spreadsheet.

[Doubtful]

GameType: RolePlay

( And why couldn't an Elf be used as the base race in your build, getting rid of the ECL penalty? )

( Answer: Because nobody likes elves )

I like elves.

Given a whole mess of free time and some actuall reason for it to exist lore wise, I could very happily create a rather spiffy environment for elves to frolic about in and plot the downfall of that empty hearted race of man.

The only reason I don't do much with elves in Sundren is there isn't anything lore wise, and the existing elf heads make me want to send offensive letters to whoever created them.

The rest of this thread seems to be 'My number-wang is bigger than your number-wang'

[Root]

An extra attack is always worth the investment. I'd explain it to you, but I'd need a spreadsheet.

Is it because of the 5% chance to hit no-matter-what (ignoring concealment getting in and buggering things up like the scamp that it is)?

Or the slight increase on an initial damage round for flat-footed chaps?

Either way, personally don't think it's worth it regardless.

Always seems that any good TWF build comes down to a massive quick spike of damage, and hoping nothing is left standing. Rogues being the obvious one for this, but the IB being notable for it, too.

Point of this thread being 'Non-roguey TWF'ers generally suck for powerbuilds compared to other powerbuilds'. Which I suppose is true. Two-Weapon Rend maybe helps up?

Also, Doubtful, if that was a reference to this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjOZtWZ56lc

I love you forever.

[roguethree]

Is it because of the 5% chance to hit no-matter-what (ignoring concealment getting in and buggering things up like the scamp that it is)?

Or the slight increase on an initial damage round for flat-footed chaps?

Yes, yes, and having more attacks frontloads your higher AB attacks, which frontloads your damage, which actually decreases the damage you take as a result of killing faster.

[Mournas]

I'm quite knowledgeable on them, yes. Is this supposed to be bad?

Ignore it all you want, but if the setting, lore, and all that jazz mean nothing to you, why bother with the whole RP server stuff?

Point still stands. Extra attack is not worth the investment. It's hardly worth the feat. The build is having trouble with AB to start with, and at level 23, what's the point of an attack with +9 AB? My pure-damage-based, AC-be-damned Half-Orc can dodge that 90% of the time. A level 1 Dwarf who picks up Expertise can dodge that on anything but a 20 if you throw him fullplate +1 and a shield. If the attack is actually hitting your target often enough to be worth the feat, they're already going to be dying from your other main attacks due to their terrible AC.

Not to mention any dwarf on this server will laugh merrily at your inability to get past his permanent 10 DR, let alone hit him more than twice per round and then proceed to very slowly and surely chip you to death with his axe.

First and foremost I do enjoy RP, and not all character are as the stereo types go for a race. Look at the poorly written adventures of Drizzt Do'Urden. Not all elves have to worship the Seldarine etc ... thats the best part about fictional lore. You can carve out just about any little thing in it. Viable or not.

Aye 11-22 Damage base does kinda suck but youll also have stacking 6 damage bleeds for 6 12 then 18 damage with a good chance of critting out of the 10 attacks ... sure its still only 5% chance but hey also keep in mind your AC is 4 lower on a good number of attacks if you successfully feint your opponent. Im not saying that TWF is UBER infact imo its underpowered in low - modest magical settings like Sundren. I have hit for 70 Damage crits with a great ax at level 5 on a cleric. The game mechanics are incorrect for Calculating damage. Which gives Two Handed Fighters a superior edge when it comes to Damage output. Never in a DnD game should you be able to hit for close to 100 damage in a single hit unless you are a rogue. That however is a NWN2 error and can not be fixed.

I do agree though TWF should be given a little extra lovin since they tend to suffer from the lack of feats if you want to make one that doesn't get hit all the time.

[Thief Of Navarre]

I have an invisible blade (Fox which you may or may not know) and the way NWN2 deals with the bleed damage they are substanderd as two weapon fighters. I would rather have taken shadowdancer for the flavour or more rogue levels for increased sneak die personally.

If the bleed damage overcame DR like its supposed to it wouldn't be an issue but as it stands it basically means im slightly better AC wise when unarmoured and my AB is slightly above average for a rogue of his level.

*edit* On a side note as soon as a barbarian or berserker crits with his greataxe your talking 120+ damage easily, then his regular attacks are hitting for an average of 35 damage while raging/frenzied with minimal loss of ab due to his rediculous strength score. No decent RP expected of you cause your a tard with an axe and you can also swing 'em with the best clerics (god forbid the selfish clericzilla actually buffs you to make you hit even HARDER!)

[Mournas]

If the bleed damage overcame DR like its supposed to it wouldn't be an issue but as it stands it basically means im slightly better AC wise when unarmoured and my AB is slightly above average for a rogue of his level.

Now that I didn't know! Wow what a crock. Glad you told me before I even tried to make an IB.

On another note ...
@Doubtful about the my number wang coment. If your character sucks people tend to not want to group with you. Thus numbers matter in any game. As I have already gotten this comment from someone who enjoys the RP aspect of the game. So numbers always matter even in a RP server. If you suck, you suck and thats all there is too it. You're marked as less useful etc.