More magic unfriendly Enemies

[Intrepid42]

The equipment strength concerns mentioned previously gets brought up periodically, and I'm not going to restate my thoughts on it.

However, equipment concerns can be improved through in-game action. +5 lightning swords aren't on the menu, but improving the fighter's lot can be done.

If your PC's don't craft, think about rolling a mining alt to mine for ore or gems. It won't help your other characters directly, obviously, but will increase the number of craft ingredients in circulation.

Keep your distillable creature parts. If the local alchemists have enough then keep them for your own use. Keep obviously rare ingredients and enquire after their use in-game rather than just selling them to the store. Most +2 gear can be gained with in-game actions. Many, such as cloaks of fortification +2, can made relatively easily.

If you're interested in crafting, there are plenty of niches available. Brew Potion has been criminally under-utilised, though this is improving. An alchemist cleric with Brew potion who has enough levels to cast Regenerate would enjoy a monopoly on one potentially highly useful recipe, as far as I am aware. There are plenty of smiths but custom crafting armor is a lot of fun (at least for me).

Many ingredients for +3 and higher do not drop in loot and require DM assistance. However, I've seen player initiative rewarded numerous times. For example, if my PC wanted treant twigs (not that any of my PC's would want anything to do with those nasty things), then I would start by asking nature-type PC's in-game about treants. Fighter's aren't going to be able to match the GMW spell, but we can all improve their lot through in-character actions.

[Lilene Jora]

Assuming saves were lower and offensive spells were not changed, spells that don't rely on a save or are difficult to stop despite that are still good for those reasons. A few proper missile storms will kill anyone who isn't warded from it. Bigbys still has a good chance of success and so on.

I believe I noted earlier that not only should the saves and immunity spells be removed, but then ALSO remove all the "overpowered" spells...especially those that do guaranteed disable or damage like bigby's, missile storms, and anything blinding (until blind works properly, if ever) just to name a few. With saves where they should be, the "inferior" damage spells suddenly work how they're supposed to, and have to be used judiciously, not just using the same two spell combo against any target.

[Infallius_Daemonium]

I believe I noted earlier that not only should the saves and immunity spells be removed, but then ALSO remove all the "overpowered" spells...especially those that do guaranteed disable or damage like bigby's, missile storms, and anything blinding (until blind works properly, if ever) just to name a few. With saves where they should be, the "inferior" damage spells suddenly work how they're supposed to, and have to be used judiciously, not just using the same two spell combo against any target.

Right, you did. I said only reducing the saves though.

If you did both, I think the balance would tip towards melee. At least, for pure-wizard types. Clerics and gish could probably still fight melee just fine if buffed. In CvC that is; though, I guess there's always running in circles with haste.

[Kaizen]

Thing is, those 'kill' spells .. well, we only get so many of them. A wizard isn't going anywhere in levels with a 10minute rest and kill spells alone. Not to mention we get 4 hit die a level ... most of our tier 1-5 spells are to prevent us from dying. And I think that's where the difference is between non magic classes and wiz/sorcs. You have decent, but unlimited attacks. We have powerful, but very, very, very few spells.


That's why you don't see too many end tier wizards. When was the last time someone got Bigby's on the server? I can honestly only think of a couple high level pure wizard/sorcs that regularly play these days (and I'm including Brom and Ahriman in all their tardiness) I can only think of one EK, but he's been around forever. And the 'high end' wizards I'm thinking of aren't even 18,19, let alone level 20 yet.


Now the Cleric/Favored Souls issue is a different matter all together. They are everywhere. But you shouldn't punish magic users across the board because of that one divine class. I even feel bad for druids and spirit shamans.


That immunity to fire? well, when we walk into a 150 dmg fire trap in the Mossdale that monks/rogues can reflex save/ evasion out of, fighters can just soak up ... well, we just die.


From someone who's played both sides of the magic/non magic ice rink, it will be impossible to equalize anything CvC wise, but it shouldn't be, in any case. RP wise, why would you want to fight a Favored Soul of a God? Or his/her Clerics for that matter? You wouldn't, because a God has their back.


As for world encounters, it's been said before - the DEV's say they have a plan for the non magic classes.

[Redjack]

Since I am reading some ridiculous posts, I will make one. Just remove all the melee characters and the server will be balanced. Voila!

[Dragor]

That immunity to fire? well, when we walk into a 150 dmg fire trap in the Mossdale that monks/rogues can reflex save/ evasion out of, fighters can just soak up ... well, we just die.

I have yet to run across anything with a high enough reflex, even buffed, that can 99%(which is max) evade that trap

[Kaizen]

for the rogues and monks, i was thinking more improved evasion (50%) damage.

[Twisted-Indoctrine]

*Really long fairly cool story that's simply takes up too much space to quote in full.* ... Meanwhile, I tossed out two Greater Dispel Magic spells on him and then followed by a Moonbolt to lower his damage potential.

...

*The middle part of the story where an orc is systematically broken down by cleverness over his sheer brute force strategy.*

So, yeah, the obscure spells can end up being surprisingly effective. Tigen seems to get a lot of mileage out of Blinding Spittle here on Sundren too.

Agreed, there's some pretty effective under used spells that are damned effective. The Greater Dispel was certainly the linchpin there too, it made the rest possible. I don't see the problem in it at all, if the orc player had planned for it he could have adjusted the strategy ( like dispelling premonition for example and likely a whole bunch of other buffs and just smacking you with the wrath of the gods).

I received a rather well thought out PM from someone over this discussion and they had there own bit to say on it. Basically they disagree with me on my "More dsipels" theory citing that it's a little harsh forcing character deaths when people run out of spells. They go on to agree with the safe resting spots idea though, designated rest areas within the adventure areas themselves.

They brought up some issues about spell caster level to level of mob discrepencies (read: we usually fight things slightly weaker than us) which makes dispels hurt people who rely on potions and lower caster level classes (Rangers and paladins) more than it hurts pure casters. These are all pretty valid concerns.

Then he mentions item dispels being the exception because you can just set the dispel dc on them high enough to be a threat to anyone and everyone.

It was a good post but it sort of showed me what I'm having trouble communicating. I think everyones kind of missing my point originally with all this talk of balance and stuff.

What I want is not for clerics and casters to be less useful and fighters to be more so... What I want is for death to happen MORE frequently and the risk of death to be present much earlier. If that means item based dispels are the way to go so be it. What I get tired of is constant buffing buffing buffing buffing unto juggernaut strategy whereupon the play style is essentially bump into mobs and kill them through sheer numerical attrition that they can't compete with because in many cases they're not designed to deal with that; it's boring as hell.

What I'd like to see is dispels liberallyt crashing buffs until yes, using them AT ALL seems questionable much of the time. If that means handing viridale orcs and sewer lizard men archers a few arrows of dispelling for their first three volleys SO BE IT. It adds a stress dynamic to play, and a good one. Stress dynamics are good to plan around it'll make a lolworthy enemy something to plan around "Well we need to close that gap and get in his face immediately to stop him from atacking... OR we need to just forego buffs". Skeleton archers, demon flesh archers, they could all benefit from this (though I'd prefer demon flesh kinghts getting it on their swords, they're slow moving and easy to kite - this would just be giving you an extra reason to consider doing so).

My point is death is about as meaningful here as it is in wow unless you're soloing, and you shouldn't be anyway. The game world should litterally be too dangerous to solo in. I WANT adventuring alone to be a death sentence, traveling alone to be a risky endeavour.

I WANT direct damage spells and CC to be prefered even though they aren't as powerful from a raw mechanics point, I want them to be prefered because they mitigate damage indirectly. Hold monster, bigby's interposing hand, as examples. I want them to be prefered because unlike your buffs they aren't going to be dispelled as often (I doubt Viridale gnoll archer dude is going to be shooting his Gnoll shaman bro who's been held in the middle of a dispel magic cast anytime soon) and unlike buffs they aren't typically fire and forget spells.

I want battles to have more of these kinds of tactical assessments and decisions made and less "Well we don't have enough buffs" for this nonsense and crap.

Most of all I want us to all die frequently more often. Because that's where all the best times in my gaming carreer come from. I look back and I never remember the times where I crushed a foe miserably. But I do remember laughing my arse off with buds when we we're so heavily out matched that we got stomped out chuckling about how poorly things went and what could have been done better, I remember the times where you barely pull through. And I remember the lower level adventures more as result where those threats and events SHOULD be more present than they are now.

Now I know someone will chime in "Well it's just a game," or "THat's not fair" but the thing is... so what? It's only death. It's not like your character can't recover from it when someone gives them a hand. It's not like IC relationships can be formed or strengthened by it. Also it's only a game, even if you do die permanently so what, it only takes a few minutes to do up a new character and get right back at it and have more fun with new people.

The trouble is I know people won't get over the stigma of death in a game as a bad thing. Or the nonsensical notion that the low levels should be easier on you than the higher level stuff*. But I can still throw the idea out there and maybe someone will see the virtue of it.

All I'm saying is, maybe enemies should be more than mere fodder awarding XP. Maybe every fight SHOULD be life or death. Maybe nameless goblin shaman span 8917847 should be treated as a player character in significance, given the spells that he needs TO KILL OR HINFDER YOU WITH THE INTENTION OF AIDING IN CAUSEING YOUR DEATH without apology. Lesser dispeling low level shamans crashing lowby priest and wizard buffs? Yes please. Lowbie goblin adepts hitting low will save fighters with hold person, sleep or charm so their buddies can coup de grace us? Absolutely. Slapping low fort saves chars with blindness/deafness? Absolutely (I'm even aware that its bugged).

On the flipside there's nothing stopping us from doing the same thing to them (in fact we already do everything in our pwer to kill them, I'm just saying level the playing field), knockdown just jumped up in utility, as has all of a casters control spells, and direct damage spells make a hell of a lot more sense because there's a chance you can just wail out so much damage instantly so as to knock a dangerous mob out of the fight before the complications it brings have a chance to manifest themselves. Archers are more important for the same reason. The sheer face rocking damage a rogue can slam out are now more than desireable.

All of this can be achieved by just having stuff sheer through buffs like butter. Forcing players to huddle in the safety of firelight waiting for companions knowing that everyting out there is just as capable of killing them as they are them only that the enemies will have more numbers and thus more opportunities unless someone comes along to even the score.

The point is death is and should be fun.

[Kaizen]

The point is death is and should be fun.

No. nonononono.


Death is pretty much laughed at and not taken seriously anymore on Sundren. Let's not turn it into a party.

[Vaelek]

Mrmmhmm..

Well, perhaps I'm the only one with this opinion, but I couldn't care less about PvE situations.
I'm on the server for roleplay, not to suffer hours of humiliating defeat at the hands of overpowered mobs.
Death at the hands of overpowered PCs I can live with.

As it is now, I actually see people soloing less and less.
That seems to be, from what I've gathered, due to the fact that even some of the more powerful divine casters can't handle the former solo-grind area now, namely the Veritas.

So everyone in the 12-19 level range floods Argyle.
And you can't really solo where everyone else is, so parties are made.
Or, er, people are butchered and someone does continue soloing for another five minutes until a new batch arrives.
Which is fun to watch too.

[Kaizen]

And you can't really solo where everyone else is, so parties are made.

I think that's the intent.

And as much as that sucks for some RP character sheets (the loner, the restricted race, the wandering vagrant, the bitter hero) ... well, that's how you decided to RP them.

Which sucks even more, cause it cuts down on some of the sophistication of the RPness, but you know, that usually isn't too hard to get around RP wise. If you squint. Real hard. ( what are you talking about? my reclusive spirit shaman always hunts undead with Cartel members. Why? oh, well...they recycle.)


I mean, some of the more obvious ones (dain and sorshar aren't going fire giant hunting together any time soon) should be avoided. But its understandable where people try to force RP too take on a more difficult CvAI to get those much needed levels for when CvC inevitably happens to your toon.

[Vaelek]

Oh, I'm not saying it's a bad thing.
Forcing people into one general area, even if it wouldn't help a party-forming mentality, at least offers a contested ground where you're sure to spot an enemy or rival.

The only downside to everyone crowding around in Argyles is the number of spawns available for you to fight over.
I mean, I couldn't walk two steps with my soulless Frenzied Berserker without running into a Paladin or Ilmatari cleric that was eating up my delicious mobs.

I'm just waiting for the day when a Black Hand party forms solely for the sake of wiping out the Triumvirate there for a few hours, so they can level in peace. And vice versa.

[Twisted-Indoctrine]

No. nonononono.


Death is pretty much laughed at and not taken seriously anymore on Sundren. Let's not turn it into a party.

Then that's a seperate issue. The point is, losing needs to facotr into the equation more often.

[GodBeastX]

I guess we could just lower buff durations across the board so they last for single encounters. 1 minute caps and things like that

[roguethree]

Along that line of thinking, reducing some hr/level to minute/level, some minute/level to rounds/level, and tossing Persistent Spell would go a long way.