More magic unfriendly Enemies

[GodBeastX]

I scale encounters personally based upon fights. People have gone in behind me and changed encounters and loot drops and things of this nature so that some of my balancing has become invalid in the future, but I do not take cleric buffs into account when I balance because they aren't always there.

Essentially I say if I'm a fighter, I have this much HP at this level, this much ab, and this much AC. Generally. So the creature to be a threat of any sort needs to overcome those aspects at a % scale.

Then I add in utility creatures into the party mix to keep things interesting. For example, while a skeletal warrior vs a fighter you can expect XYZ to come about, this undead fire elemental has a cold damage when struck so it may require some tactics. And while the mage might be able to put out xyz damage, having a rogue will mean they're a non threat with a couple backstabs, hence why they aren't undead.

I do take a lot into account for balance, and buffs aren't generally something I try to think about which is why they might be able to solo a bit easier. However, if I take buffs into account in any way other than removing them, then it will REQUIRE said fighters to have buffs to handle the dungeon. Thus balance is lost.

However, the new idea I had has been run by saulus and our next dungeon will in fact be designed to level the playing field between caster and non-caster in very specific ways which will be limited to that area.

[ThePaganKing]

Another solution may be gear, but not uber gear, for fighter/non-buff types. Say you have certain rings, or helms, or such that provide a percentage chance to save vs. paralyzation or death, the two real killer spells that take your tank our quickly. Maybe give them a 60 or 80 percent chance to save or lower, depending on how you want to do it. That still means that everytime you go into a place, you can still die, but you have a better chance of surviving than normal.

Not sure if this is the way we want to go? Servers are so hard to balance because there are so many classes, spells, and abilities and where do you draw the line between difficult and impossible for most classes in areas?

Just a thought. Not sure if the percentages are too high or too low. I just know that we had a fighter with us who had a decent save vs. death and he got hit with one death spell and instant poof to death land.... It makes it very hard for him to ever want to go to that area again unless he has someone provide protection agains the spell.

Now, realistically, you wouldn't want to ever go back there again anyway, but this is a game and certain areas are real cool to fight in or give very decent xp and we want to go back. Face it, nobody wants to stay in the ogre cave and kill ogres for 20 hours to make it to the next level (illegal on the server anyway). So we always tend to migrate to higher areas for more challenges.

[Kaizen]

This thread has destroyed my simple mind.

[Twisted-Indoctrine]

Just some things I saw and wanted to address.

What does this do to fighter or ranger/ranged types - it nerfs them because when they enter those areas, they are instantly hit with stun type spells, death spells, paralyze spells or hit by creatures that have high ACs and instant killer ABs and the damage they do you cannot withstand for very long.

Just cutting that bit out of your post. I see what you're arguing and I get your point but what's happened on the server in the case of a nerfed low magic classes. Nothing's mechanically been done to nerf fighters/rogues/rangers and neither has making areas harder done that. The classes are overwhelmed by the encounters, yes, but there's been no nerf.

Just wanted to clarify that because the use of terminology seemed a bit misleading.

I'm pretty sure the only difference this would make is that the casters would have to just rest and reapply buffs, meaning:

A) Fighter-types can't do these dungeons solo still
B) When in groups, fighters get less buffs due to them being needed for Captain CoD
C) Casters just avoid the dungeon and do other places more

Hey Root, long time no see.

Valid concerns.

I'll do my best to address them using and elaborating on the ideas I produced in my first post.

First off...

"I'm pretty sure the only difference this would make is that the casters would have to just rest and reapply buffs"

Left as things are I agree, but I also mentioned rest restrictions, which would not only discourage the whole "Oh my buffs are gone! Hold the press, stop the train, need to rest, need to regain!" Nonsense I see all the time that drives me crazy with how ridiculous it is. We've got people in game if rest time compression didn't exist, running around super buffed for 20 minutes a day then resting for 9 hours so often it's ridiculous.

There's no pacing of spell use on the server currently because the rest system doesn't make that a concern, when it really should be. You do three rest and rebuff ciycles in an area after every buff cycle ends and you've spent 27 hours in enemy territory. That's absurd, your enemy would rally and mercilessly slaughter your lazy arses in your sleep at some point by simpy mustering and overwhelming your lethargic arses.

There needs to be a cooldown on rest and more area resrictions to disallow resting no matter what is done IMO. No matter what approach is taken, or what direction the server goes THIS is probably the largest problem there is in terms of low magic balance.

A) Fighter-types can't do these dungeons solo still

That's fine, that's not only fine that's good. That means fighter balance has been reached. My issue is not to make the server more friendly to fighters and low magic classes, it's to make it more hostile to magic users. Fighters being unable to solo things isn't the problem, the problem is that casters are.

Things are pretty balanced for low-magic parties - the fights are challenging and fun and you could die. That's fun. Things are boring as hell for a party with dedicated buffers, you're unstoppable. That's boring as hell.

The problem is that the dedicated buffers can apply all that to themselves and solo the same area just slower.

The discrepency between buffers those who don't is HUGE and easy to take advantage of. Giving enemies the ability to crash those buffs (which is an ability they SHOULD have, it's not a buff to give a 8th level caster NPC a dispel magic cast or two because they are literally entitled to it - it should have been an option the whole time) will help level the playing field a bit in this regard, making soloing as risky and dangerous for a cleric as it is for a fighter. It will also make being in a party more interesting because it adds a logistic concern to keep track of and build strategies around which is sorely lacking much of the time.

It would make things more difficult for casters without hurting current non or low magic users. It would also boost the hell out of the usefulness of feats like spell girding.

B) When in groups, fighters get less buffs due to them being needed for Captain CoD

Maybe, but the CoD would be taking a serious risk throwing all his eggs into one basket for once. If enemies dispel like they should be it'd make more sense to fire off your buffs in short controlled bursts so you can progress a fight, clear it out, check what you have left and determine if you can go on - that's a perfectly good example of how things should be.

What would happen if CoD batteried himself and got dispelled a moment later could easily mean the loss of an entire rest cycle of spells in a single encounter - which is meaningless right now but with rest retrictions in place that becomes a serious risk and concern. Spreading buffs out among the party remains a more prudent strategy than hoarding, because even then as now dealing with an enemy faster and more aggressively means it lives for a shorter period which means less time to hurt you. The only catch is right now they can't really hurt you at all most of the time.

C) Casters just avoid the dungeon and do other places more

Then make it unavoidable as I suggest. Casters and beasts of all appropriate stripes using what spells they have when they should use them, let the chips fall as they may. I'm not really arguing for buffs or nerfs to anyone, I want enemies unnerfed when it comes to dealing with magic on PC's. They're so timid it's not even funny. We should be getting our buffs crashed more often from the very start of our adventuring carreers. It's not really an adventure if you just coast all the time on the strength of magic while your enemies don't use the same magical tools they have at their disposal to thwart you.

Death is trivial here, who cares if you die, unless it's a total party kill or you died soloing it doesn't matter, it won't actually cost you anything. Not having any risk to our safety and well being is not heroic or even challenging - especially when death is just a question of a few thousand gold to fix.

Truth is I don't think the game is unbalanced if you let it off its leash by letting NPC's crash buffs like they would and should. Getting hammered with a dispel and annihilated while buffless should be a risk a solo-er takes, and even a party takes. It's adventure, it's all about risk taking.

"If you think it's crazy, you weren't crazy enough to begin with."

Let us get debufffed, dispelled and slaughtered in droves, let the tears flow from our eyes as the blood from our characters - in torrents and rivers because it doesn't matter. At all. If you die just get up again. Eventually, and much sooner than you might think, players will realize the new difficulty is more than survivable by working together.

We're not getting anything out of it by being dealt with by kids gloves by the NPC's from low levels on. If high level area's are as hard as is being said in some cases than what justice does an easymode first 10-11 levels do us? If we're not learning how to deal with these things from the get go we're crippling ourselves. Rest restrictions, dispels, debuffs, they need to be more common and from the get go. They make the game more challenging and so long as it isn't blatantly retardedly impossible, challenge is and should be fun. More importantly they teach us the things we need to learn how to do to survive the later areas where this stuff is apparently already in effect.

If it isn't fun having a risk thrown in your character's face then frankly what's the point of even playing? The game's reduced to grindan' grindan' grindan' grindan' grindan' grindan' all of the sudden and you might as well just move to Korea and get a local MMO subscription there.

Edit to add: Man... I would kill for a quote button that just slaps the Quote with square brackets into the text field everytime you click it, manually formatting is a PITA

[Lilene Jora]

I disagree with the Pagan King. The answer isn't liberally handing out immunity, or near immunity items. The problem with balancing is too many immunities from spells, especially when they allow you to negate the disadvantages of other spells (thinking tortoise shell and stone body primarily, which become much more balanced with their negatives in place.) Living undeath, freedom of movement, and death ward are all big suspects here.

If it were up to me, I'd say remove all the spells that add big +saves like conviction, night shield, and superior resistance. Remove the "instant win" spells. Etherealness, anything that blinds, certain of the bigby line, and missile storms,(no doubt I missed a few in here) and remove immunities from items. When everyone actually have saves that aren't astronomical, you don't need the "broken" spells in the first place - it becomes a matter of picking and choosing the right spell to the right target again. Things like high HP can actually become a powerful balancing factor against something like a wizard. If you're a fighter with high hp and fort, he can't one shot kill you. Without maximized missile storms, more balanced reflex saves based spells will actually take several casts to wear you down.

[roguethree]

Things are not balanced for low-magic parties - the fights are challenging and you die.

Fixed that for you.

I trust GBX et al. to do their thing concerning that via new areas. Trying to rebalance old areas to meet new standards would likely be a tremendous headache and not worth visiting.

It's been hit on before, but a fighter with buffs is less durable and in many cases has a lower AB and damage than the God-mode Favored Soul. The solution is to increase the power of gear available to the low-/nonmagic classes, reduce the power of the high-magic classes, or create areas that play to the strengths of low-magic pcs, as the staff has said will be done. While this doesn't address class imbalance for CvC purposes, that sort of balance is impossible to attain and shouldn't be attained, anyway, so I think the "new area" solution is the best immediate solution.

[Root]

delete

[Seheren]

If it were up to me, I'd say remove all the spells that add big +saves like conviction, night shield, and superior resistance. Remove the "instant win" spells. Etherealness, anything that blinds, certain of the bigby line, and missile storms,(no doubt I missed a few in here) and remove immunities from items. When everyone actually have saves that aren't astronomical, you don't need the "broken" spells in the first place - it becomes a matter of picking and choosing the right spell to the right target again. Things like high HP can actually become a powerful balancing factor against something like a wizard. If you're a fighter with high hp and fort, he can't one shot kill you. Without maximized missile storms, more balanced reflex saves based spells will actually take several casts to wear you down.

Without trying to sound like an ass, this is a horrible idea. I do not think removing buffs is the answer. Just because they can, and do, use and abuse these buffs does not mean REMOVE REMOVE NERF NERF. I hardly see nerfing any class as a good solution. I do think balancing encounters or finding other ways to keep clerics and wizards from being too powerful is good. Just dont resort to removing and nerfing..

[ThePaganKing]

Actually, I have seen fighters with high fort saves get one shotted by a death spell, actually, many times.

And I do not support full immunity items.

Look, I love fighter types and I really hate buffing, then resting, then buffing. It is a pain in the butt and like as been said before, unrealistic if you are resting over and over to get those buffs back.

But what is the solution. You have fewer rest periods or areas where you can't rest and you also include more buff stripping, then you are down to the fighter types again, until that same caster hits you with bigbys and paralyzes you, then the enemy fighter types takes you out, or the caster hits you with death spells and you instantly go away.

Not sure what the solution is. I understand all sides, but lets remember that its a game and there are many areas in Sundren, many that nobody really goes to anymore.

And I understand you want difficulty - the best times I have ever had was being in an area I shouldn't be in with a balanced party, and surviving, because we used tactics and all the abilities of the parties. Maybe the solution is RP? Maybe we should start to police ourselves and use tactics and all the abilities of our party. Maybe we can put RP restrictions on rest and such.

[Lilene Jora]

I'm not saying someone with a high fort save couldn't still be one shotted by a death spell...that's what they're there for...but it's still not the best answer for said wizard or cleric to try to brute force every encounter with death spells...sometimes that strategy might not work.

You're not sounding like an ass, Seheren. I'm comfortable with people not liking my ideas, I know they're extreme. I'm just saying, when was the last time you saw people throw around regular old fireballs and lightning bolts? How about chain lightning? Maybe an acid fog, incendiary cloud, or horrid wilting particularly in CvC encounters. People use spells that don't allow saves of any kind because buffed saves stack stupidly high, and immunities. Remove that, and subsequently the spells people feel "forced" to use to win encounters...and suddenly you have a lot of overlooked spells coming back into use...at least in my estimation.

[Infallius_Daemonium]

I'm comfortable with people not liking my ideas, I know they're extreme. I'm just saying, when was the last time you saw people throw around regular old fireballs and lightning bolts? How about chain lightning? Maybe an acid fog, incendiary cloud, or horrid wilting particularly in CvC encounters. People use spells that don't allow saves of any kind because buffed saves stack stupidly high, and immunities. Remove that, and subsequently the spells people feel "forced" to use to win encounters...and suddenly you have a lot of overlooked spells coming back into use...at least in my estimation.

Well yes if you remove the most effective spells people will use the others. Though, that won't be because they're good now... they're just the best option with what one has to use.

Even if saves were less high, I don't think many spellbooks would change. At least, not toward "direct damage with a save" spells.

[Lilene Jora]

Fair enough. What does your spellbook look like now. Why would it not change?

[Zoberraz]

This talk of bringing up overlooked spells reminds me of a PvP fight I had over the Frontier persistent world. Allow me an anecdote.

There was some bad blood going on between the playermade orc and druid factions and the way to have it settled was arranged through a proxy battle that would end up with the dispute resolved in favor of the winner, with the defeated combatant consenting to being permadead.

My Firiel was an elven druid, while my opponent was once a half-orc druid whom betrayed our Circle and converted to Gruumsh, ending up being a Cleric of Gruumsh. A lot of people thought the fight was a mismatch and expected my waifish elf druid to be turned into meatpaste.

Seeing how I had rich incentive to not want my character to die, I wracked my brain to find ways to get the upper hand on a powerful cleric whom could buff himself up to demigod status. I couldn't compete in brute force and very high buffed saves meant that most of my better spells would be ineffective on him - especially considering the likely use of Energy Immunity and Spell Resistance. I finally hatched myself a battleplan that might allow me to win, but I really needed to make sure my opponent wouldn't have Stone Body active on him when I executed it.

At the appointed time, the fight starts with us agreeing to start it pre-buffed. My opponent's first move was to cast Dismissal to get right of my Wolf animal companion and then proceed to buff himself with Divine Power and Battletide. Meanwhile, I tossed out two Greater Dispel Magic spells on him and then followed by a Moonbolt to lower his damage potential.

He charged in and I trusted in my Premonition spell to keep Firiel alive while I proceeded on to my attack plan, hoping my dispels had stripped off Stone Body. I caught him in an Extended Creeping Doom on the that round, and another Extended Creeping Doom on the next.

Creeping Doom usually last three rounds, with Firiel summoning 8 swarms out that - with a +8 Wisdom modifier (Owl's Insight helped) - each attacked once a round with a +22 to hit for 2d6 damage and a slim chance to inflict a weak Str poison.

With two Creeping Dooms lasting 6 round each, my opponent was already under a lot of pressure and he started healing himself with Heal and Regenerate... but that was fine: I just cast two additional Creeping Dooms and trapped him in what I call a 'healing panic'. No matter how much he healed himself, it wouldn't be enough to allow him to recover enough to afford not to heal on the next round, which left Firiel free to act.

Next on my plan I intended to do things like summon a big elemental and turn into a Dire Bear to claw him as hard as possible, but it turned out I never needed to. The application of 32 creeping doom attacks per round (each striking at +22 for 2d6 damage) was enough to have him go down.

So, yeah, the obscure spells can end up being surprisingly effective. Tigen seems to get a lot of mileage out of Blinding Spittle here on Sundren too.

[Infallius_Daemonium]

Fair enough. What does your spellbook look like now. Why would it not change?

Well I'm not a very good example... most of my spellbook is buffs and things that don't harm, like mind affecting spells. Couple of death spells for just in case, but. That's because of my character though; not what's most effective.

I imagine if I were to tailor it for CvC though... basically what you listed.

Against monsters and the like, buffs with a group seems most efficient. The longer lasting ones, but also things like haste and displacement.

Assuming saves were lower and offensive spells were not changed, spells that don't rely on a save or are difficult to stop despite that are still good for those reasons. A few proper missile storms will kill anyone who isn't warded from it. Bigbys still has a good chance of success and so on.

I'm not against the idea of reducing character saves, though.

[Seheren]

I think that removing spells that buff saves is a bad idea, but, I do feel they shouldnt all stack as they do. Maybe a small amount of stacking but not to the extent that they do. Though if I remember correctly this was something difficult to change?