More magic unfriendly Enemies

[Twisted-Indoctrine]

I know it's probably come up like it does on every low magic server that magic is op blah blah whatever, I'm not really interested in approaching that arguement from a nerf casters buff non-magic users whatever perspective. I guess this could probably chalked up as low-magic theme suggestion #9098348998982989878795 but I feel it's worth suggesting anyway.

What I am going to say is that all the buffs we player wonk out onto eachother trivializes the hell out of a lot of content. We just walk through it, fully buffed I never actually feel any sense of impending danger at all. Also there's no rest restrictions in order and enemies except for the odd boss are all fairly tame in order to meet that sort of awkward middle ground so fighters aren't useless but casters still get a challenge. And while a good jobs been done for the most part more could be without targetting classes for nerfs or buffs or that whole can of worms. But suffice it to say dealing with the battles we have while having the access to buffs that we do - on demand all the time - makes things, bluntly, dull.

Basically why is it enemies aren't tossing out dispels and greater dispels? Or wailing on us with dispel on hit weapons? A lot of the touble isn't magic itself so much as buff after buff after buff after buff (which I'll add is boring as hell to sit through prior to combat ... I swear people buff the hell out of themselves for the most trivial stuff) until we're all walking talking magic laden juggernauts that are completely and utterly anti-thematic with a setting that's supposed to be sparsely magical.

Having enemies liberally crashing buffs makes turning yourself into a juggernaut with all your buffs all at once a bit more of a gamble - the way it should be - rather than a guaranteed I win every fight all the time everytime for the next 20 - 40 real life minutes (which is equally stupid because minute per level spells end up as long as hour per level spells at some point - but that's another subject entirely). basically if you blow your load up front on these dudes before the main fight and they score a couple of natural 20's well guess what? No buffs left on you when it really counts.

Enemies crashing your buffs would decrease the reliance on them for every little damned thing while improving the worth of things that aren't dispelable (like the static bonuses granted by items for example) or on disposeable utility magical items that grant a desired effect without costing valuable spell slots (potions and scrolls for example) as well as pure magical oneshot spells (damage spells are suddenly as useful as buff spells possibly even more so in some cases). Tied in with some actual decent rest restrictions in place (like for example not being allowed to rest and recover all spells in a demon infested village or something ridiculous like that) this would go a long way in balancing things out and making magic a little more chancy with more risk of running awry of you rather than simply being a work around for low magic item levels like it is now.


I don't know, maybe it['s just me and 40 people will chime in with eye rolls but damn it, I find it BORING that we can just run around like sparkle bunnies at will with no risk of them failing on us but for time itself. I also find it silly calling buffs "buffs" at all. they become bloody class features in many cases because they're always there never fail - its just aggravatingly antithematic that buffs can do all this AND last for as long as they do and while no one wants their character nerfed yada yada " don't nerf my precious numbers and polygons bro" this idea works around it by simply buffing creatures to deal with magic users.

Just a thought anyway, and probably my only complaint with the PvE action on the server.

[Saulus]

2 days after implementing more intensive debuffing strategies to our dungeons there will be a resounding cry about things being too difficult. Everyone will say that they lose their buffs too easily then become useless and die.

It's just impossible to keep both sides happy.

[roguethree]

There are dungeons and enemies that do the very things that are being suggested in this thread.

[Twisted-Indoctrine]

I hope this doesn't come off as flamey, I don't intend it to, I just really think things are too easy and magic's not being done justice with regards to theme.

Everyone will say that they lose their buffs too easily then become useless and die.

Yeah I know... I really don't get it though. I mean death penalties here are pretty simple to recover from. Hell, coming from a perma death server I like how easy going things are and I don't get why some people get super freaked out about dying here. It's not like you risk losing weeks of backstory invested in a character here. It's a few hours at most, possibly an item, oh god.

"What you can't go there you'll die for certain!" "Big deal, sets me back a couple of thousand xp which gives me more time to sit at level and gain more gold fighting monsters some more while meeting new people who are up and comers to do it with, sounds great actually."

Maybe everybody's in it as some sort of level race or soemthing and I'm not but dying really doesn't bother me all that much - its just more time to adventure with more people to me.

That said, I'm still of the opinion that people should die once and a while in the midst of combat... it's combat, it's supposed to be a harrowing dance on a knifes edge between life and death not "lol uberbuffs, pwnt".

It's just impossible to keep both sides happy.

Agreed, but then I wouldn't try to. The theme is supposed to be low magic - stick with it or don't. If it's not enforced as low magic by magic being limited in some form or another then how is it genuine to itself and actually low magic? Why call it low magic at all? Why make it low magic at all?

All magic is currently doing is what it shouldn't be doing in a low magic setting*: seperating the haves from the have nots by enormous gulfs. More importantly it's making content creation to tricky to balance because you have to take all sorts of considerations into effect.

Now obviously if we nerf casters or buff non-casters someone will get all up in arms about it and be unhappy and they may even be justified - perhaps in doign that you'd have removed one of their favourite parts of being such and such a class. But buffing the encounters a bit to make some anti-magic more common in the interest of maintaining theme doesn't actually nerf anyone, at all - it's just changing the encounter design for the integrity of theme that was originally intended.

Moreover the whole "Well if we put these monsters here and it does this then non-magic users have no chance while cleric or gish bro can solo it!" as a consideration would cease to exist if "Well these monsters can also dispel all your stuff in a single blow which means no one can solo it as such and this forces players to huddle together in sheer terror praying someone else gets hit instead of them."

When I started playing here I actually couldn't tell it was low magic. There's magic everywhere unrestricted with no checks or balances against it in combat. If I didn't read that it was a low magic server I would have never known. There comes a point where a theme's integrity needsto be brought into question or else it loses its purpose; do we want low magic or not? are we trying to portray a world where magic on items is inexplicably limited while raw magic is much more powerful than the products made from them?

Seriously what is the stance on this, I don't mean to inflame arguements or anything but honestly: the theme with regards to magic level is unclear.

There are dungeons and enemies that do the very things that are being suggested in this thread.

I know, I've heard that. I'd just like to see more of it, more often, and earlier with magic actually being magical rather than everywhere on everyone at all times no matter what.

"Lets climb the mountain to visit whurest."
"Okay no problem hold up, I'll rest and then cast energy immunity, shield of faith, mage armor, bull's strength, owl'swisdom, divine favour, divine power, magic vestament (twice), greater magic weapon... man I can't wait till next level I can persist some of the shorter stuff then... Bear's Endurance, bless, aid, and death ward. Crap I forgot my barkskin potion. There, all set."
9 bandits 6 wolves and 4 elementals (like the most trivially easy creatures ever with all that magic backing you up - they might as well not even be there) later in whurest.
"Oohp... Looks like divine favour wore off, time to rest and rebuff in full before going back down."

I can't even count how many times it's happened.

It's bizzarre how reliant people have become on it. I won't say it out right because I don't actually know, because I don't actually theory craft buff builds, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are whole builds based around the reliable presence of powerful buffs all the time and for some reason even in a low magic setting nothing is being done to make the limitations that should be felt by such a build in such a setting felt by the character.

It's just wierd.

*(Unless it's a low magic magocracy styled setting; but even then without things to stomp magic out from time to time you lose a major part of storytelling tension which is HUGE in its importance... It's like a fighter only dungeon without a rust monster, a gygax adventure without an obligatory thug fight, or a romp through the underdark without a beholder annihilating half the party in a round - totally incomplete.)

[Saulus]

It's low magic because of the item availability/power. To make the same point again, if we make it even harder, there's going to be a long list of people complaining because buffs are no longer effective.

I'd love to see get people debuffed all the time in nearly every dungeon, but again if I do it more, then I have to deal with the other half telling me their level 8 wizard is gimped because he gets debuffed all the time. Right now it's not too bad...

If you find things too easy try going to Mossdale with a group of three or even two people. The Abyss will be even worse (in regards to magic). You may find spots where it doesn't even work at all.

Also I don't think you'll find things too easy in DM events ... we can get rid of buffs pretty quick if things are too easy for a player.

[Zuram]

The original post is why I dont play a cleric, I got so bored of having to basically have my entire spell book filled with buffs, walking through the entire party buffing everyone for everything. The only problem being if people dont have stone skin, bull strength, death wards, protection from evil, imunity to criticals etc etc the high level mobs slaughter the fighter in seconds or one bad roll and the entire party is running around feared.

[BedlamX]

Agreed, Zuram. The power level of enemies on Sundren seems (at least to me) to be set for a buffed party in most locations that actually give xp. Not so much the lower level areas (fighters shine in these), but anything that gives XP above say level 10 or so. A fighter...even a small group of fighters...can not survive long in the Veritas or Mossdale. You absolutely have to have some sort of buffs.

Why? Because everyone and his brother knows that mages and clerics can survive more with their buffs than any fighter with accessible gear on Sundren. Make mobs start dispelling constantly and no one can survive. This would cause most to avoid the really cool-looking areas because...and I don't mean this to be rude or anything...this is a game and is played for enjoyment. If the power level of mobs is way higher than even a small group, death isn't something that is just trivial, it becomes a matter of "why even bother?" When I get to that point, there is no further reason to play. Real life is way too full of dissappointment and beating your head against a wall due to restrictions and constraints. If I enjoyed "no-win" situations, I'd just spend all my time at work butting heads with management.

[GodBeastX]

So you want a dungeon/area where magic is the weakness and raw power of a char is the strength?

No problem. I already have an idea how to do this and balance it. We'll see what comes out of my idea.

[gbbishop]

well the big problem with your idea is this: you propose to check magic by handing out MORE magic. how does THAT make sense.

I think the world does a good job of encouraging team work. I agree that uber buffing can be a problem but these types falter when put into dm situations, watch them sometime. Anyway things have been changing, it now cost 25 gp for each stoneskin, for example.

As for the "DM removing buffs" this is a terrible solution. IHMO, DM's should never remove buffs to increase a challenge. They could have their NPC do so... if they have that ability. To do other wise completely undermines the CR which is already a bunk system. It will only serve to frustrate players and not add anything to the encounter.

The best solutions are:

1. When a DM keeps an event moving and does not allow time for a rest... this will make those who "uber buff" very sorry when they run out in a longer event.

2. Dungeons designs with rest restrictions. Like the old necropolis.

small note to this last one, i think the zinc mine is a poor example of rest restrictions. maybe it is just because the area is tangled and respawns happen quickly and numbers can be huge issue... but just try that place with out uber buffs... you will get no where.

[Twisted-Indoctrine]

well the big problem with your idea is this: you propose to check magic by handing out MORE magic. how does THAT make sense.

I thought about that from the start and the truth is it doesn't make any more or less sense than having magic run rampant in a low magic setting in the first place.

What does make perfect sense is fixing magic unapologeticly until it fits with precisely the point that the theme demands of it. No item enhancement spells taking the enhancement bonus granted beyond +3, all minute per level spells either reduced to their real rates with regard in game hours (example: 6 minute game hour = 20th level caster minute per level spell lasting 2 minutes as per the spell description directly translated into the game's time compression) or changed to rounds per level if it'd be more reasonable. Four hour minimum period between rest, only regain spells in rest areas.

But perfect sense doesn't work because people will suffer aneurisms raging over "nerfs" if spells were made to actually supplement items rather than replace the need for them entirely, or if spell durations were made accurate to time compression standards.

Nerfing magic will never work someone will blow a gasket over so I made the suggestion to add more dispel effects and rest retrictions as a work around. Does it make sense? No. Does it get the job done? It would. Is it a nicer and less heavy handed alternative to fixing spells so that their durations were accurate to time compression making buffs actually buffs again rather than glorified class features of CoDzilla's and Gishes? Yes.

It may not have made sense, but it was a pretty fair compromise and would make enounters more tactical ("We need to pressure that mage or he's going to crash us... trouble is that dude with the great axe is going to be laying into us freely while our attention is on the wizard." as opposed to "Okay guys attack one target for efficiency! and then move onto the next one!"), would lower the difficulty on area designs having to take into account so many different kinds of character types. Sure it was like suggesting taking a sledgehammer to an operating room instead of a scalpal and anaesthetic because it technically would be using magic to take out magic. Even so honestly it isn't so strange if you think about it ... what's more strange is all the enemy casters out there that DON'T use the dispel magic spells that they DO have access to at their levels I was really only suggesting that they actually start using what they have access to and maybe if the need comes up adding some capabilities to dispel where needed.

So I agree it doesn't make sense but I hope that at least explains why I proposed it.

As for the rest of your post I definitely agree with...

1. When a DM keeps an event moving and does not allow time for a rest... this will make those who "uber buff" very sorry when they run out in a longer event.

2. Dungeons designs with rest restrictions. Like the old necropolis.

I've seen 1 before and I was quite happy about it I'll add. Nothing to add to it, it's just something I hope is always kept up. Logistic concerns should exist when dealing with magic and too little is done to make that a reality when DM's aren't around to make it so.

As for 2... Agreed I very much want rest restrictions of somesort, preferably universal but I understand some people might disagree vehemently with that so at the very least could it not be possible to sleep in most parts of the unsafe hellholes we adventure in? Just wierds me out how awkward it is just pausing for rest in the middle of a walking corpse infested yard, or a demon infested shell of a village.

"Oh our buffs faded, it's cool... We'll just stop and rest here in this pile of corpses we just made out of a small portion of an infinite host of enemies pouring out of the bowels of the planes themselves. Surely it will be alright if you merely stand there and watch for nine full hours."


And while you made the comment in passing about 25 gold for a stoneskin cast... it's probably not a popular one but it seems like a fair limit to put on certain spells; to have them consume gold as a representation of the consumption of material components in the casting. I'd like to see more of it but I won't pretend to know how to go about balancing it with regards to economy and such.

[Lilene Jora]

I have to say, I love a lot of what Twisted is saying above. This is why people hardly ever use direct damage spells...because there's no contest using say, a fireball...when you could greater magic weapon your entire party instead that can potentially last for hours of real time instead of a one shot deal. Sometimes though, shouldn't just blasting the enemy be the right answer? Most buffs are supposed to be short duration, used in the same way as that fireball. Should I try and nuke them, or buff my party with haste or displacement, which will be better? That element of playing a caster - carefully picking and choosing which spell to use when, has become lost. As awful as it might be, brutally slashing down buff durations into the compressed time might help restore that element of choice, and still leave casters the way they're supposed to be. THE MOST powerful combat element on the field....for brief encounters.

This also means of course, encounters could actually be scaled back to a degree. Everyone says don't solo alone around here...they mean that unless you're a cleric, FS, or druids. Even if you do party up, sure you could bring a fighter, ranger, and two rogues to something like mossdale or veritas...but you'll still die. You may as well have a cleric, druid, EK and just triple stack every variety of buff in the game. You'll do better.

Speaking of rogues. They have marginal utility now in veritas, Ixis and Mossdale...but everyone takes a HIPS prestige class because it's viewed as the only viable utility the class has. When's the last time you needed rogue skill mastery to deftly set a trap a pick a lock in a combat situation? Why can't there be an encounter, maybe a boss, where you get MORE rewarded for finding a clever way to bypass him...maybe pickpocketing a key to a special chest. Right now rogues aren't valuable for their combat potential in areas, or for any skills a wand of knock can't simulate to give the above triple caster party their bonus loot.

Now, encounter design is pretty mixed in places like that duergar dungeon that just came out, or veritas. You fight good mixtures of enemies...some casters, ranged, and melee...but that's starting to get used everywhere. I'm trying to imagine a situation in which a straight up fighter...barbarian even, might be more useful than anyone else, even a buffed melee stacked cleric. This example will be extreme just as proof of concept. Our party opens a door...egads! There's like...50 enemies inside. The wizard wisely tosses a fireball...but they all have spell level absorption on (Spell mantles, rats!). The cleric, with his three attacks per round goes in and starts swinging...the AC on these things is rubbish, he hits every time, even if he didn't have his buffs...but these things have like 50 ab and a couple attacks a round! They're getting through all his damage reduction buffs with whatever weapon material type, or types, they have...but when they hit, they do only like 5 damage a shot. All the same...there's a lot of these things and it'll start to get taxing being worn down like this.

Enter the barbarian/frenzied berserker! *Fanfare* In his frenzy and rage he flies into battle. Greataxe swinging, he chops into the nearest little baddie in the swarm, and easily one shots it. Hey, these things only have like 50 life! With his massive constitution and 300+ hp's, he can last a lot time against the unavoidable but small amounts of return damage. His underutilized 3/- barbarian damage reduction reduces that nettling amount of damage even more - he can tank this really well. Noticing their low AC, he slams on supreme power attack, and begins to supreme cleave his way through the swarm, chaining one into the next with the unlimited number of cleaves per round until all the enemies are felled!

That's just one example, but when's the last time a physical feat or ability was the linchpin that saved the day?

I'm not saying every encounter can be that crazy...but there's more things you can do, and do to make different abilities useful, than balanced attacking enemy groups of Fighter/rogue/wizard, over and over again that favor the present mindset of...why party at all, or if you do, party with other buffing classes.

Lastly, I like the idea of scaling back greater magic vestment and greater magic weapon. Think about it for a moment. As a standard fighter, if you bust your ass to find materials and pay PC enchanters...you can make a (maybe +3, more often +2) 1d4/1d4 weapon. Not bad by any means. A cleric on this server can take a club, and make it a +4(cap right now on GMW?) +10 magic damage (brambles) keen (weapon of impact). Okay, so that by itself is way better than the PC enchanted fighter weapon. Now how about if the CLERIC PC enchants his club too? Start with a basic club, add three, 1d4 energy types to it...then add +4 enhance, keen, and brambles. Imagine if casters actually bothered to utilize the crafting system? It's ridiculous, since those temp enchants don't waste spell slots. Suppose you're a favored soul. You get two energy resistances 10/-? Get some gold armor with some sockets, fill those. Then instead of having to spend tons of money and effort PC enchanting it to +2 (maybe +3, with even more monumental effort), you can just get three more 5/- energy resistances, and temp enchant the armor, and your shield, up to +4 armor and shield bonus. So now you have someone resistant to every energy type in the game just about, except divine and magic.

The spells are just so good to begin with, and potentially allow casters to make even better use of the crafting system than those non-buffing people it exists to bolster.

[Thief Of Navarre]

2 days after implementing more intensive debuffing strategies to our dungeons there will be a resounding cry about things being too difficult. Everyone will say that they lose their buffs too easily then become useless and die.

It's just impossible to keep both sides happy.

On the plus side while these enemies are debuffing the casters (the classes who suck without their magicyness) the rest of the toe to toe melee characters like paladins, monks, fighters, rogues and barbs can be laying the sweet jesus into anything capable of casting because we dont rely on buffs to be semi decent at what we do!

That being said Im also guilty of buffing the hell outta stuff (especially my animal companion because it isnt nice to have him ICly die while in a group).

[Intrepid42]

One thing to bear in mind is that casters are more effective when they know IC or OOC the nature and location of the threat and can plan their spells precisely. High AB, saves and AC are always good, of course, but timing is important with the shorter duration spells.

Partially random spawns like GBX has stated he is working on will make spell selection a bit more tricky. I'm not saying it'll make a huge difference. But it may make things a bit more challenging for casters compared to non-casters, especially if there is a chance debuffing enemies may appear unpredictably.

[ThePaganKing]

The real problem I have seen over the server life is the scaling of encounters because of the clerics, EK, mages, and uber druids on the server. I remember specific times when things were scaled because someone came up with an uber caster/fighter build and just soloed easily through some of the hardest area. I remember an EK build that soloed through one of the hardest areas of the time - upstairs necropolis easily and did it frequently. Therefore, they made it more difficult.

What does this do to fighter or ranger/ranged types - it nerfs them because when they enter those areas, they are instantly hit with stun type spells, death spells, paralyze spells or hit by creatures that have high ACs and instant killer ABs and the damage they do you cannot withstand for very long.

I am not complaining about the server or the areas, I am just saying that there is a reason that the areas are uber tough and you usually need someone with magic to get through it. Of course, we archer types, if we have a large enough area to run and shoot, can survive much better than the up close melee types.

Not sure what the solution is - but I agree with a previous post, some areas most people don't even bother going to unless they have a party of five or more with major buffers so that they have a chance of survival. I have even been in parties like that and we still lost half our members.

[Root]

Thoughts of a maybe-returner:

I'm pretty sure the only difference this would make is that the casters would have to just rest and reapply buffs, meaning:

A) Fighter-types can't do these dungeons solo still
B) When in groups, fighters get less buffs due to them being needed for Captain CoD
C) Casters just avoid the dungeon and do other places more

If you want server balance, then it has to come into play all the time. Higher magic level would do this, though brings the downside of every sonofamother having a +5 Lightning sword. Alternatively, the cornerstone spells of the gish classes need a horrific nerf if not outright removal, which would likely result in widespread rage.

Spells like Divine Favour, Divine Power, Tensers Transformation, and so on and so forth, are the things that make the casters overly powerful. Self-only buffs that increase combat ability far above that of a devoted Fighter, even one using some buffs themselves. Remove them, and we have some more balance.

Making dungeons that specifically target the problem isn't the best response, IMO. If an unbalanced class or build is the yardstick, then more people are forced to playing one, as PaganKing said.

Players will complain more when you nerf their powerhouse than when you make the world stronger to compensate for it, but sometimes it's the best thing to do.