Red Wizard of Thay PRC

[Peridan]

Yeah, I went and looked around the Obsidian forums and whatnot, and I'm under the general impression that Spell Power acts like Practiced Spellcaster, in that it adds levels to your damage rolls as well. For spells like ice storm and flame arrow, this means there should be extra damage as opposed to a caster of the same level.

[Saulus]

Everything I can find on the subject tells me that spell power counts towards your damage and spell DC as a caster level. A level depedent variable check is exactly that, thats how all spells are calculated in the game.

Also this bonus only applies to your specialized school.

[Ebannon]

I'm almost certain it doesn't effect spell DC.

Spell DC is determined by 10 + The Level of the Spell + Your INT Modifer + Feats that Directly Bump your DC (spell casting prodigy, spell focus, being a gnome, and heritage power feats).

For example the dreaded Red Wizard's Wail of the Banshee is: 10 + 9 (9th level spell) + 8 (Buffed Int Modifer) + 4 (1 from Prodigy, 1 from Red Wizard, 1 from Spell focus, 1 from Greater Spell Focus) = DC 31

Does spell power really add to caster level and not to dc (first question) and (second question) does it apply to all schools? According to the current description it does add to caster level based variables of all schools.
Caster level itself is not a "level-dependent variable check", so a fireball will still do 9d6 damage if you are a wizard 5/red wizard 4. However, when a caster level check has to be rolled, which in nwn2 is petty much only when dispelling as far as I remember, it will add the bonus. For example, if someone tries to dispell your buff and you are a red wizard, they roll vs. a DC of 11 + your caster level + spell power, instead of just 11 + your caster level. Overcoming spell resistance is also a caster-level check, however.

Your caster level doesn't factor into spell DCs at all.

From what I've seen 'level dependant variables' also doesn't factor into direct caster levels for duration or damage. This point I'm less sure on, but I believe that the check only effect is spell resistance and dispel checks.

With that being said with the requirement to give up a second school, aside from Palemaster, it is the weakest of the arcane PRCs by far.

[Urithrand]

Stop throwing so much hostility at the gnomes.... it's practically the only bonus we get

And much as we can argue the finer points of game mechanics, it's not getting us anywhere. The bottom line is that RWs are more powerful than a simple wizard. Next time someone goes "All we can do is dispel people easier" (and in fact it's really quite considerably so) I'm going to start sharpening my pointy DM smiting stick. If you can't see what an amazingly powerful ability this is, completely alone and aside from other bonuses, then perhaps they shouldn't be playing a wizard in the first place

[Ebannon]

The bottom line is that RWs are more powerful than a simple wizard.

That's the exact opposite of the bottom line, and directly against everything presented. They SHOULD be more powerful than your average wizard (or at least on par), but the PRC basically cripples them.

All we can do is dispel people easier

You actually can't dispel people any easier, unless you're an abjuration focused Red Wizard. The spell defense would give you a +5 to resist dispelling attempts but only from buffs cast from your school of focus.

That's pretty lame.

Stop throwing so much hostility at the gnomes.... it's practically the only bonus we get

I could start hating on sun elves, air genasi, drow, yuan-ti, or tieflings if you want.

They each can start with a 20 Int, which means they get a +1 to DC for ALL spell schools over a human's max 18. You could build a sun elf generalist wizard, take the SC progeny, spell focus, and greater spell focus feats and end up with a DC 31 wail of the banshee and access to all spell schools. You trade off the red wizard's +1 to DC in their school of focus for the sun elf's +1 to DC gained from having 2 extra points in int. Not only would they have the the same DC in necromancy and access to all spell schools, but a higher DC in every other school over the red wizard.

[Kangleton]

Hey, Uri. Abjuration forbidden school.

My awesome Red Wizard bonus to dispel only came after it told me dispelling was no longer allowed. Get out the pointy smiting stick.

[Cornuto]

Everything I can find on the subject tells me that spell power counts towards your damage and spell DC as a caster level. A level depedent variable check is exactly that, thats how all spells are calculated in the game.

Also this bonus only applies to your specialized school.

I decided to do some testing. Saulus is right about Spell Power boosting damage dice and duration for your school of focus, and the NWN2 wiki discussion is just wrong.

I made a 17th level RW evoker with Maximized spell and testing Ice Storm (one of the few spells that isn't capped at a maximum damage).

The spell does 3d6 points of bludgeoning damage and 2d6 points of cold damage, plus an additional 1d6 cold damage per 3 caster levels.

The spell reliably dealt 18 damage and 54 cold damge (12 of this from the flat 2d6, and remaining 42 of which would have required at least 21 levels of spell caster level since you gain 6 damage for every 3 levels.

I also tested the duration of a haste (6sec/level) versus a death armor (6sec/level) on a 17th level RW necromancer, and the Death armor outlasted the haste by a substantial amount.

As for DCs, spell power seemed to have no effect on DCs.

I tested the DC of a Wail of the Banshee cast from a 17th level Sun Elf Generalist with INT starting at 20 versus a 17th level Necromancer Red Wizard with identical feats selection. Both cast at a DC 29.

However when I bumped them up to level 20, the Red Wizard's DC suddenly went to a DC 30, while the sun elf stayed the same. I couldn't figure this out for a long time until I realized that obsidian added a rule that spellcaster's gain a +1 to their DC every third epic level (+1 at 23, 26, 29, etc.) Apparently the spell power feat means that red wizards begin receiving these bonuses five levels earlier for spells cast from thier school of focus. Meaning they see an additional +1 to their DC from their specialist schools at level 18, 21, 24, 27, and 30.

It appears the class was primarily designed for epic level characters -- they are who will see the real benefit. Which makes sense as it was introduced with the high level MoTB campaign.

For characters on the Sundren module you'll lose two spell schools. In return you cast spells from your school of focus up to five levels higher (which seems powerful, but most spells are capped at a maximum dice that ever wizard reaches, for the few spells not capped it shines), you get a +4 to saves versus your school of focus, and get a +1 to DCs from your school of focus that increases to a +2 at level 18 (provided you have 10 levels in the PRC). Its still a big loss, but the payoff isn't as bad as it first seems.

[Saulus]

So my point stands. End of discussion.

[Cornuto]

Arguably, until you get into epic levels the Red Wizard is still getting hosed in comparison to an elven wizard, but not nearly by the margin I had originally thought.

[gbbishop]

um i just started a red wizard. I don't see any problems with the way the class is designed.

Perhaps my perspective is altered by the fact that I play a MoMF. One of my favorite and most powerful PRCs in PnP. MoMFs a horribly bugged and damn near crippled PRC in NWN2 but I STILL love to play him.

Anyway my red wiz is not a red wiz yet so I have not lost my second school but I have already lost illusion.. and let me tell you that SUCKS. Go ahead try the hills with out ghost visage or invis.

Debating whether or not obsidian botched a PRC translation will get you know where. Time and time again I see where Obsidian screwed the pooch.

Why include a PRC that combines sneak attack and spell casting if you can't sneak attack with a ray spell? (arcane trickster)

If you don't like the way a PRC is built don't take it. Find another. If a class like the RW, that offers benefits of a none mechanical nature, does not appeal to you then don't go RW.

[Urithrand]

Anyway my red wiz is not a red wiz yet so I have not lost my second school but I have already lost illusion.. and let me tell you that SUCKS. Go ahead try the hills with out ghost visage or invis.

Crazy idea - take a party

I played an enchanter for a long time, they lose illusion. It's tough.

[Thief Of Navarre]

I love enchanters; its one of those schools you cant really afford to give up (unless your a wizard/cleric).

Xan in baldur's gate = always had him around even though he sucked

[Rugabug]

Red Wizard doesn't need buffage. Its the same damn thing as a wizard except you gain a greater proficiency in your chosen school. So you give up a spell school, suck it up. Drop Evocation, there are plenty of other offensive spells in all of the other schools. Honestly, I played a specilialist variant wizard who focused on evocation. It was so bland and he lost -soooo- much utility. I should have gone specialization into conjuration or transmutation, dropping evocation and probably illusion. ANYWAYS, besides the point.

Red Wizard advances spellcasting without a speed bump. It gains a dc and bonuses in other ways for his chosen school. He even gains a free feat, just as if he were a wizard. You lose 2 things with RoT. Familiar advancement and a spell school. Thats not to mention member benefits from -the- foremost magic item creation organization.

[gbbishop]

Crazy idea - take a party

I played an enchanter for a long time, they lose illusion. It's tough.

Oh that is right.... I forgot Red Wizards get THAYAN KNIGHTS.

silly gbb you forgot that again didn't you.

Obviously this is the best comment so far. RW are a lawful organization of evil wizards. They should be smart enough to bring some back up!

I can't wait to get into this class personally.

[gbbishop]

but being able to "check out" gnoll cohorts would be super sick!

how bout that?