Red Wizard of Thay PRC

[Kangleton]

Someone with math skills found me.


Anyways, as was already addressed, the value of that boost toward overcoming spell resistance is negligible when the PRCs prerequisite already includes the two feats designated to do that. It's a semi-redundant ability.

[Urithrand]

Someone with math skills found me.

You better hope I don't get started on your 2.2% increase in power

And doesn't red wizard specialist school resistance stack with penetration feats? If it doesn't, it should imo. That's all I'll conceed to you insane powerbuilders though!

(j/k)

[Ebannon]

I think you might be overselling the benefits of arcane defense and power.

Neffriel is a necromancer, Pyras an illusionist. The defense applies only to your school of focus. I can count the times I've been attacked with necromatic spells in the module on one hand, and the amount of times I've been attacked by illusionist spells on zero fingers.

And while dipelling may be difficult, the array of necromatic buffs is .. well what.. false life?

Neither of these are all that useful in the module. The real benefit of the class is the +1 DC to your school of focus, and the trade off for it is losing access to all illusion spells (there's much more than one spell after level two that hurt: Shadow Shield, Shades, Siloptosism, Glass and Shadow Doppleganger spring immediately to mind.)

As stated you could make a gnome generalist with spellcasting progency, spell focus, and greater spell focus and have the exact same DC as a red wizard illusionist with the same feats AND access to every spell school.

[Machiavelli]

Aside from statistical differences the class itself gets other perks in the form of the faction.

What he said. I've seen Neff's inventory

[Peridan]

I'd have to be honest, in weighing the benefits of the class from a whole, the RP factor is too large to ignore. You may be restricted from a second school, but in return you're given a whole heap of benefits that make you a significantly powerful PC despite the fact.

I've seen what can be done with a Necromancy oriented RW, and it's not pretty. In fact, I think my reaction was somewhere between awe and fear that such a high DC was required for an instant kill with Wail of the Banshee, much less Finger of Death. If you apply these bonuses, you're going to apply them to the class as a whole. While this may be beneficial for someone who takes divination as their spell school, I feel as though it may be overkill in regards to other schools such as Necromancy.

[Kangleton]

I think you're overreacting to a +1, there. Fear and awe at a DC that was made negligibly higher through 10 levels of a PRC?

[Ebannon]

I've seen what can be done with a Necromancy oriented RW, and it's not pretty. In fact, I think my reaction was somewhere between awe and fear that such a high DC was required for an instant kill with Wail of the Banshee, much less Finger of Death. If you apply these bonuses, you're going to apply them to the class as a whole. While this may be beneficial for someone who takes divination as their spell school, I feel as though it may be overkill in regards to other schools such as Necromancy.

Thats really any Necromancy focused mage. I guess I'd ask you this:



Which would your character rather fight...

1. A Red Wizard Necromancer who can chuck DC 31 death spells and can't access two spell schools.

or

2. A Regular mage focused in necromancy who can chuck DC 30 death spells and has full access to every spell school.

Or even worse.

1. A red Wizard illusionist who can cast DC 31 illusions, but can't access two spell schools.

or

2. A gnome who can cast DC 31 illusions, but has full access to every spell school.

[Peridan]

What you're talking about is an increase in that DC though, past 31. In truth, fighting a RW as Peridan would have far more implications than if he was fighting some rogue gnome illusionist or regular mage. In fact, any law abiding citizen would be in serious crap if he ever came to blows with one of the Arbiter's strongest and most influential allies. Yes, a regular mage may just have a difference of a point, but it's a whole lot easier to fight and kill that guy instead of a Red Wizard with the full support of the Enclave and government behind them (assuming of course, the Red Wizzie isn't rogue him/herself.)

The +1 difference isn't much in pure gameplay mechanics, but when viewed in a larger picture, the class itself is on par if not more so in power with a Legionnaire.

[Kangleton]

Okay...

What if the gnome illusionist was a member of the Black Hand? Then killing him pisses off another extremely powerful faction. What if he was part of the Legion? What if he was part of just about any other faction? Every faction has support, and there are others that have even the government's support - not just the Thayans. Hands of Mundus, maybe?

"RP benefits" are an inapplicable argument, as every faction gets love. The Thayans have a teleporting mechanism, though so does at least one other faction. The Thayans get... faction stores? So does everyone. The Thayans get immaterial financial wealth, though there's nothing to buy; they get Knights and Gnolls they can't actually call upon regularly. You know what else Thayans get? The same two active Red Wizards for, what, over a year without new blood? They also get an amount of DMs I need two hands to count, who are all terrified of RPing the faction due to either not knowing it's lore, or feeling they can't meet the high expectations bestowed upon them by the higher powers. I've been on Pyras for a very, very long time, and while I've gotten some decent items handed to me by Saulus, I've been in a total of two events that I can remember - a third one only today, which didn't actually have anything to do with the faction.

Not only is the point of "RP benefits" irrelevant to what Eb was actually trying to discuss, but these benefits don't actually put the faction above any other. Personally, I envy the Banites. What Eb was actually trying to discuss, though, was purely mechanical, and insofar as said mechanics are concerned, the entire Red Wizard PRC and all of it's levels are trumped by a non-ECL race. That's painful.

[Peridan]

In reference to Ebannon's post, he asked a question of my specific character. And it does make a difference, as all factions are not equal in the fact that a lawful organization carries a certain amount of weight when the server is based on a government that supports said organization. And when it comes to my Legionnaire, he would have a lot less problem in fighting a Banite than he would a recognized ally of his faction. That's what I was saying.

And I will try not to stray too far off topic, but the Thayans are not the only faction with very few PC's that are active. In fact, the only ones that have a thriving population from what I have personally seen, are the Red Blades and the Banites.

But I think it is important to look at the full picture when deciding to buff a PrC. Yes, perhaps a gnome illusionist may be able to be on par with a Red Wizard in pure DC. But he doesn't have the extra five levels in spellcaster that a Red Wizard has, and if the Red Wizard is an Evoker, then he doesn't have the extra +4 bonus defense to most of the pure damage spells in the game.

Those five levels play a huge part in damage rolls, as well as crafting abilities. The ability to craft quicker and easier, alongside being able to throw around more powerful damage spells makes RW a very strong class. But truth be told, if you wanted a build more focused on DC's than it already is, then RW is not the right class to take.

If you wanted awesome DC's then perhaps it isn't a good trade off for an extra barred school. But being a spellcaster instantly (once you have the class in its entirety) five levels higher than any who may actually be your level, alongside the RP that comes with it, makes this class a viable and attractive option.

[Kangleton]

Perhaps I misread something or am referencing the wrong ability, but I thought those +5 levels only applied to overcoming spell resistance and against dispel checks. Which is, well, pretty terrible.

[Ebannon]

Yeah, according to what I read 'caster level' doesn't qualify as a 'level dependant variable check.' So spell power doesn't bump anything that is certain dice per level in damage or durations.

[Peridan]

Ack, I misread it!

[Phantom Lamb]

Is a level-dependant variable check those parts of the spell that are dependant on level, such the number of mirror images you create? If so, that's pretty strong.

But my suggestion is, if there are things in the RW PRC PNP version that aren't here, we look into finding ways to create / fudge them. Pumping up the DC bonus is just too strong IMO.

[Thief Of Navarre]

Is a level-dependant variable check those parts of the spell that are dependant on level, such the number of mirror images you create? If so, that's pretty strong.

But my suggestion is, if there are things in the RW PRC PNP version that aren't here, we look into finding ways to create / fudge them. Pumping up the DC bonus is just too strong IMO.

I asked that earlier and as far as I can tell PL; no, it doesnt not make your spiderskin give more spideryness, nor your image more mirrors or your fireball more fieryness. It just determines dispel checks and SR checks effectively making the RW a very good dispeller. thats all.