Difficult things to Role Play

[sonuvalich]

Most of my PMs are either Blackwood related or red wizards making sexual advances toward both my character and me as a player.

You like it.

[krazysigmarite]

Canonically, Elminster has a magical portal that goes to Ed Greenwood's house. Ed Greenwood is a wizard but his powers don't work on earth. So elminster tells him all about FR and that's how it gets into the D&D books.

I wish I was being sarcastic

realmslore.txt

The way I manage to roleplay in a FR setting is to just completely block out my suspension of disbelief. The world itself is a badly written pastiche that makes no sense from any semblance of a logical perspective, but has a few interesting ideas that one can latch onto. It also makes for a fun adventuring setting because literally everything goes.

[Atmosphere]

Canonically, Elminster has a magical portal that goes to Ed Greenwood's house. Ed Greenwood is a wizard but his powers don't work on earth. So elminster tells him all about FR and that's how it gets into the D&D books.

I wish I was being sarcastic

realmslore.txt

The way I manage to roleplay in a FR setting is to just completely block out my suspension of disbelief. The world itself is a badly written pastiche that makes no sense from any semblance of a logical perspective, but has a few interesting ideas that one can latch onto. It also makes for a fun adventuring setting because literally everything goes.

This is similar to Sundren lore with staff members, but our magic works on earth.

[FriendlyNecromancer]

I don't know, I myself get a little board with "exceptions" and "humanized" monsters. I actually like earlier editions where there were things that were alien and difficult to comprehend. You can say they are borning, but honestly, why does everything have to be a human? Why can't there be at least a few types of monsters who really are completely unlike us? In the quest to turn everything into a human, its like D&D has lost a major part of what made many things alien and mysterious. What human mind can comprehend a being that is incapable of evil or good?

Well... as you said yourself it gets boring. Sure, there just have to be enemies you'll face who are nothing than random green skinned mobs who are there for the sole purpose of dieing at your hands. After all, it's not as if every battle has to be special."Humanizing" some particular enemies such as the BBEG and his higher ranked henchman can be nice because it tends to give them complex feelings and emotions, it makes them more than just another creature to kill, to the point talking with them, listening to them, actually becomes viable. You get to at least understand why exactly said creature has that particular set of goals, no matter how wrong they might sound to you. If he's just some alien eldritch abomination bent on destroying the world, that's all there will be to it, you meet the creature then fight.
Of course, you can still build a nice story around that by having a great cast of supporting characters. And like you said, not everyone has to be a special character.
But then again, PCs are usually all special snowflakes, same as important characters in the Realms lore. Who would you say for example is a better character, Szass Tam or the Red Wizard Enchan who happens to stay sitting on his ass in the Enclave every single day? Hell, you practically don't even know who that guy is besides his role as a shopkeeper, why he is there, what his thoughts on his current role are, his goals in life, etc.
PCs all tend to have much higher stats than the average for their race, they have far deeper backstories and reasonings, they leave their mark upon the Realms in ways a normal peasant or random noble couldn't even dream of. That's why they are able to achieve the roles they can in the game.
That's not to say you or everyone has to play as a 1000 year old Succubus with 30 base CHA who just happens to be lawful good. I'm guessing special snowflake has a rather negative meaning, which is why most people don't like using it. Still, you can be a unique and well written character, or just a snowflake who's there for looking awesome and having mechanical bonuses from half-dragon/half-celestial or whatever.
I guess in the end it all comes down to a matter of taste. I'm sure some people are more than glad to play stories where the good guys always triumph no matter what in the face of evil who just happens to be inherently evil. I've come to find that very boring, but that's just myself.
This also brings me to my other point:

It's important to note that no matter what all of the lore books and supplements say, the DM always has the last word. All of these materials are guidelines and frameworks within which to build a world. We're always at our own discretion as storytellers to alter the details as we see fit.

This is a nice thing about D&D. Even though you already have the rules and general setting established by the books, the DMs are still given a lot of creative freedom to mold that the way they and the players wish. Of course, it does get harder in an online game where you have a far bigger number of people playing with different expectations than just your common tabletop session.

[Laurk]

So having been a DM myself of course no one likes a rules laywer, and you'd never catch me doing that in game. However discussions like this are practically what forums are made for. I enjoy geeking out in a good lore debait.

So, don't mistake me. I like unusual characters. Its why I play one. Part of creating interesting characters is making something unique. But I always say, when the extraordinary becomes ordinary, the ordinary becomes extraordinary. There was a time when pretty much all clerics were wussy healers. Now Abby is weirder than a 3 headed cat for filling that role.

So what I mean with this is that "every" monster in the game save for a few has the ability to be utterly differant than the Monster Manual explaination, and you'll meet them often. Im all for that. I just think there are "some" very few things that are better off not being exceptions to the rule. For me, these sacrid cows are the celestials and fiends. Those 2 sorts of monsters are the architypes of "perfection" that a priest or cultists looks to as the embodiement of "good" or "evil." I really think it cheapens them as an instrument of reverence (admiration or fear) when people think of them as simply another race with all the same "human" characteristics as every other monster. There's like a kabillion monsters who can be any alignment. There is a vast lack of those who can't. Consider this personal preferance without illusion of universal acceptance.

While the monster manual says that alighment is what the creature "usually" is, fiends and celestials are one of the only monsters that get "always" listed before their alignment.

So a note about Celestia being "Major Lawful" and "Minor Good." In the manual of planes it describes what these mean. It means that if a creature goes there who does not share the same alignment as the plane they get minuses to charsima based skills when dealing with the natives. So for Minor, the character has to be the "ooposite" alignment to get the -2. For Major, any deviation gets the -2. So in Celestia, a LE PC would get a -2, but a LN would not. However even a CG PC would suffer the penalty. This doesn't have any effect on wether Celestials are 100% good or 100% lawful, only that in Celestia they are more suspicious of chaotic people than evil people.

The only question is, do angels have free will to be different unless something is introduced? They may not! They may only change if a force wills it on them. But then, how is the evil being injected? Asmodeus supposedly was fighting evil and got corrupted from doing it. Doesn't this mean just doing good angels can be corrupted then? If he was a god, what about the other angels who fall? Why are there erinyes? Did Bane walk into Heaven and corrupt them?

The best answer ive found for this is that it was the corrupting influence of the Abyss that actually twisted and changed Asmodeus and his Angels into something other than what they were. Ive read that spending too long there can begin to corrupt you, and it so its seems most likley that the Erinyes had evil saturate into them from the taint of prolonged exposure to the Abyss. Most often the shift is due to powerful magic, curses and the will of dieties.

I don't think simliar alignments are any guarantee of simliar personalities. If you look at Graz'zt, though he is comparied to a devil for his many plots and intrigues, he's still chaotic evil. Just because he enjoys using his charm and diplomacy to twist and tempt doesn't mean he has any sort of ethics or principals. There are many kinds of chaotic evil. Just because all Celestials who dwell in Celestia are LG doesn't mean they aren't completely differant from one another, esspecially given they often serve differant gods whose "law" is night and day from one another. Heck Abby and Andelain are both LG and rightfully so, but they are night and day differant with their own personalities and outlooks. So being a certain alignment in no way makes you a golem just like every other LG person.

Lawful can mean so many things, esspecially in a realm with gods as differant from one another as Ilmater and Tyr. The only thing they need share is compassion and some kind of principal they stick too which can be as unique from one person to the next as anything.

Anyway, I think ive beat that dead horse long enough, great replies and like most source, there are probably contradictions everywhere, and like most games, the DM's word "is" reality. Abby will go on viewing the heavens in her own way, some will agree, others will say she's a nutter.

[Doubtful]

Oops, I need to qualify last nights statement.

I love a good nerdout on the forums and I'm happy as a big in a thing or place that makes pigs happy when.discussing worldbuilding, lore and the merits or pitfalls of fantasy architecture and engineering

My ire is directed purely at those who do the old 'ur doing it wrong' mid event, normaly a while after the fact a.d almost always to the advantage of their character.

[GodBeastX]

FR is full of contradictions I used to compile a list of them, but I lost it years ago. Cyric, Torm and Lloth, I remember, having a BUUUUNCH of contradiction in them. The gods in general were full of contradiction. The way faith works, for example, is full of it.

"So you're telling me if I get redeemed from evil, I'm stuck in the fugue forever?"

"Yup!"

"... So I turn good and shit on Bane. I fight against evil, probably die a martyr's death... and then I don't even get to see any of the upper realms with my new allies?

"Nope!"

"... not exactly an incentive is it?"

"Huh... Yeah, you're right."

Has anyone also noticed that every Chaotic Evil deity is a moron?

"I read that Lolth is extremely cunning!"

Bullshit. It's been mandated that gods only get power from worship, but every Chaotic Evil deity encourages the death of their followers to each other's hands. Every Drow Cleric that lolth has killed by another literally his decades and centuries sometimes of training down the tubes... that's pretty retarded.

"Yeah, but she's chaos! And it's interesting!"

That's someone trying to shovel her into a role that makes absolutely no sense. The abyss can afford to be chaotic and self destructive because there's trillions of demons. Drow there's a ton, only because the writers hand waive it as "Yeah, there's this many."



Didn't Torm steal a bunch of souls from a town to kill Bane? That made me go O_O.

"That wasn't stealing, they offered them up."

Sure, I guess I can believe that, if it didn't contradict a lot of the god lore at the time. But whatever, that's all for the story



And of course, if you're a god, you just have to leave divine essence laying around and you'll never die. Doesn't matter how pissed the Overgod gets at you for stealing his tablets, he just lets you telefrag your son and come back!

"No problem, Bane... You can come back."

Torm: "Hey, Ao, I was loyal and died a martyr!"

"Well, I tend to whimsically pick my favorite gods anyway which makes no sense for an Overgod, so you can come back too torm. But not you Mystra, even though I say there always must be a god of magic in my lore to control the weave and that's why there's been 3 mystras, for 4E we won't bring you back and have a spell plague that breaks every lore up to that point!"



And one last thing to Laurk, you'll find I did say if an angel falls they likely become a fiend, and vice versa, so that kinda means they'll always be good or always be evil.

Also, I tend to think clerics want to emulate their gods not the fiends and angels, just saying Unless you worship the fiends or angels, but fiends and angels only have divine rank 1 in Forgotten Realms, yes that includes Asmodeus you fanbois! I don't care what 4E says They only did stuff like that in 4E for the fanbois!

[Shadechild]

"I read that Lolth is extremely cunning!"

Bullshit. It's been mandated that gods only get power from worship, but every Chaotic Evil deity encourages the death of their followers to each other's hands. Every Drow Cleric that lolth has killed by another literally his decades and centuries sometimes of training down the tubes... that's pretty retarded.

"Yeah, but she's chaos! And it's interesting!"

That's someone trying to shovel her into a role that makes absolutely no sense. The abyss can afford to be chaotic and self destructive because there's trillions of demons. Drow there's a ton, only because the writers hand waive it as "Yeah, there's this many."

Multiple Authors of Drow Sourcebooks and even R.A. Salvatore (I know! I said it, don't crucify meeee!!) even state that Drow Society would collapse if it wasn't for Lore intervention! Drow simply don't repopulate their numbers as fast as they kill them off.

" Lol we kill all of our kin and have outrageously low child birth rates in which we also dispose of any newborn that isn't 'perfect' !!!"


I like the tablets reference too.

Ao: " Someone stole my tablets!"

Torm: " I will find them sir! I will DIE for them in your name!"

Ao: " lol silly torm. I knew who stole my tablets the entire time. I just wanted the world you all thrive off of and the entire pantheon to suffer!!11! I swear I don't have emotion! To teach you mortality!"

Torm: "B-but I keeled my best friend =( and I ded. "

Ao: " =D "

[sonuvalich]

The answer is simple: ignore 4th edition. I do, constantly. I tried it, I did not like it, and the lore was crap. It was like the Dragon Age 2 to Dragon Age. Let's shit all over our deep, rich lore and compelling gameplay to make a bland hack-n-slash!

I'll give you a soundbyte here: "Fourth Edition is the "Kingdom of the Crystal Skull" of Dungeons and Dragons. You can still love the franchise if you just pretend it never happened."

[GodBeastX]

Multiple Authors of Drow Sourcebooks and even R.A. Salvatore (I know! I said it, don't crucify meeee!!) even state that Drow Society would collapse if it wasn't for Lore intervention! Drow simply don't repopulate their numbers as fast as they kill them off.

" Lol we kill all of our kin and have outrageously low child birth rates in which we also dispose of any newborn that isn't 'perfect' !!!"


I like the tablets reference too.

Ao: " Someone stole my tablets!"

Torm: " I will find them sir! I will DIE for them in your name!"

Ao: " lol silly torm. I knew who stole my tablets the entire time. I just wanted the world you all thrive off of and the entire pantheon to suffer!!11! I swear I don't have emotion! To teach you mortality!"

Torm: "B-but I keeled my best friend =( and I ded. "

Ao: " =D "

I <3 you so much.

[Valhalla]

The answer is simple: ignore 4th edition.

I don't mind the system of 4E. It's a completely different game and really shouldn't be compared to 3.5 and before at all. If you want New 3.5 play Pathfinder, it's awesome.

Seriously though the 4E lore was so bad. So bad. Kill a handful of the best Gods in all of the pantheons (Heeeeeeeelm!), merge some of the best Gods (Taloooooooos) with some of the shittiest Gods (Gruumsh D=), apply Spell Plague liberally, and literally drop a continent on top of another continent because you're too lazy to write new ~lore~ that doesn't shit all over the stuff you've had for ages.

[GodBeastX]

At least the lore is evolving, it may not be good evolution, but it's changing.

Warhammer 40K has been stale for lore changes which is lame to me.

[Jhickey]

At least the lore is evolving, it may not be good evolution, but it's changing.

Warhammer 40K has been stale for lore changes which is lame to me.

As a DM in a PnP game you can change the lore, I know I have. I allow my players to create new lore, by shaping the world around them, plus what I inject and would love to see. I have tried to allow Bane to take over Toril, but my players continue to stop me. So now I work to have Bane to take over Sundren instead!

[GodBeastX]

As a DM in a PnP game you can change the lore, I know I have. I allow my players to create new lore, by shaping the world around them, plus what I inject and would love to see. I have tried to allow Bane to take over Toril, but my players continue to stop me. So now I work to have Bane to take over Sundren instead!

Heheh, I know We changed the lore a lot on Sundren by events.

[cmosier]

I never liked the number of Gods in the Realms. You have a god of magic, a separate god for mages, then gods for the individual schools. There is a god of wind, a god of air, a god of storms, and a god of storms at sea. Not everything in the known world needs its own god. There's a god of murder and a god of assassins.... I can go on for ever.