Difficult things to Role Play

[Redjack]

My main character has gray skin, thus, true neutral.
I win again.

[Redjack]

Ack, double posted! Curse you IPA!

[gbbishop]

Gonna weigh in.

@GBX - I have dark skinned toons, though the idea of playin some "brotha" in the american sense of the word, is a bit like putting on blackface for me. Odd then, that I don't bad an eye lash at playing a dwarf, thus risking offense to "little people" (or w/e the PC nomenclature currently allows) and a lot of dudes play lady toons too.. Anyway thanks for bringing up the topic, think it is worth discussion.

@Cant remember who as it was pages ago - on the difference of RP vs PVP. What is difficult for me to reconcile is NOT a characters action (the paladin of tyr smiting some hooded-darkskin with an evil ping on the detect is totally justified with IC action) but what sucks is to be the level 4 on the other end of the blade.

It sucks because there is nothing you can do. The world feels hostile and hopeless. (sure you can respawn but it still sucks and the story as a result also suffers.)

I just wish there was more communication. Tell: Hey I am gonna attack you and I will probably kill you would you. waddya wanna do? run when i attack? RP an escape or severe injury, how do you see this going down?

In PnP things can be resolved slower no reason we can slow things down here too. Maybe we could implement a Player Managed Turn Based Protocol.

Things are getting tense so one player says (lets enter Turn Based Protocol) the other says Okay and they both agree not to act move etc... until it is mutually agreed upon. (gonna make a thread for this see if we want to adopt it as a community)

In this way cases even a level 4 does not feel like the just got crapped on. A good story was told together. That should be the goal not WINNING the fight.

[GodBeastX]

I don't exactly feel the road to hell is paved with good intentions, at least not in the Realms, since all you need for a decent afterlife is to be a good enough servant in the eyes of your god to the point he decides to take your soul with him after you die. And it's also funny because no matter how virtuous or honorable you were while living, if you didn't worship a god you still get to enjoy oblivion as mold for Myrkul's Wall.

Jergal made the wall, btw.

Also, the Hell statement is a metaphore. It literally means:

"Sometimes good intentions lead to evil."

There's also a saying like "There are no perfect men in the world, only perfect intentions."

[sonuvalich]

Yeah I think PvP is the hardest thing to roleplay. Some players just seem so eager to stab you in the face, which I do not object to provided there is some buildup. I would not be upset with that type of combat, except I am often in mid-sentence when the swords come out. This has been a rare occurrence in my experience, but it is super frustrating when it happens. Especially because doing turn-based combat in real time with the NWN 2 engine fails miserably (for example, I should be able to cast from prone, not sit there getting my ass handed to me while I slowly get back up, I should be able to cast a spell without a 10 second delay for the animation and effect, etc.) I would prefer people roleplay conflict more without resorting to "Trololololol I pwned j00!" on the dice, and I usually do see something to that effect (Str rolls for grapple or kicking me in the shin, Dex checks to avoid thrown items, etc.) If it is time for someone to die, let the dice do their thing, but I really think that should be the final point on the checklist, not the first.

On the tangent of the Wall, I love and hate the idea. Such a dick move of the gods, worship us or suffer for eternity. If you refuse to get involved in their petty squabbles, they smite your ass. Total Old Testament stuff (or old religions like Norse, Egyptian, Greek, etc.) Reminds me of the end of "Erik the Viking" when the gods turned out to be cruel, all-powerful children ruining lives for their own amusement.

[GodBeastX]

I would say, and the source would concur that there are no mortals who fall into either of these categories, though some come close. Only the Celestials and fiends are ABSOLUTELY 100% aligned with good or evil (and probably law and chaos as well). Mortals all have a little of each. So my examples are certain extremes, however I think that the principal is true: The more evil you are, the more sadistic you are, the more good you are, the more compassionate you are. "Most" evil people are nowhere near the baby killing, torturing sadists that a fiend is, but some, like extreme Loviatar get pretty damned close.

You're thinking too real world on this one. The real world has the ideas of creatures that no mortal can understand because they are beyond knowing. There's only about 3 forces in the realm that are unknowable, Ao, The Abyss (Not the Demons in it, the Abyss is the enigma), The Far Realms (This is Cthulhu shit)... Many people do get beyond the evil of fiends and the good of celestials in the realms. Even these beings fall to evil or rise to good.

I'm not saying it's easy, it's actually pretty rare.

Clerics, for example, certainly can. It's why they are given full auras of good/evil in D&D, because they reach these heights. Fzoul is an example of a mortal that goes beyond.

Most of the outsiders who are beyond the evils you describe used to be mortals. Bane? Was Human. Myrkul? Was Human. Bhaal? Was Human. Mystra? Was Human. Torm? Was Human. Kelemvor? Was Human. Velsharoon? Was Human. Red Knight? Was Human. Kiaransalee? Was Drow. Orcus? Was Human.

Celestials are made up of ex-mortals too! Let me explain how this works.

When someone dies they become what is known as a "Petitioner". That petitioner when it arrives at it's god's place of RIP, become something else. They remember life for the most part, except for a few, like Hell's petitioners who have their memories tortured out of them for divine power. Here's some examples:

House of the Triad Petitioners: Most of the petitioners of the House of the Triad are lantern archons, which are fully detailed in the Monster Manual. These petitioners have no planar commitment and can leave the House of the Triad at will. Those who serve Helm or Siamorphe, or otherwise lean more toward neutrality than good, retain the forms they wore in life and have the following special qualities.

Though some stay paladins and other things, but most become celestials in the house of the triad!

House of Nature Petitioners: Most of the petitioners of the House of Nature are humanoids, who live in small communities in utter harmony with nature. They never build, cut stone or wood, or otherwise alter the natural beauty of the plane. Though they appear as they did in life upon arrival, they gradually take on animal traits—their hair grows long in lustrous pelts, short horns sprout from their foreheads, and some develop cat’s eyes or fox’s ears. Over the course of centuries, they become celestial animals. House of Nature petitioners have the following special qualities.

Oh look, you become a furry if you worship a nature god!

How about if you worship Bane?

Barrens of Doom and Despair Petitioners: Each malicious mortal spirit that comes to the Barrens of Doom and Despair becomes a special form of petitioner called a larva. Larvae appear as Medium worms with heads that resemble those of their mortal bodies. Larvae serve as the currency of the fi endish planes, especially among night hags, liches, demons, devils, and yugoloths. Most are used as food as to power spells, but occasionally a larva is promoted to some kind of fiend, usually a lemure or dretch. Larvae have the following special qualities.

You have a chance to become a devil at some point, but otherwise you're pretty much just going to be lunch for something else and wander around as a maggot otherwise. Sorry Black Hand, your afterlife sucks.

That's why bane tends to turn his most useful followers into things like undead, Baneliches, etc. He wants them in the world still conquering it, they are useless in the afterlife to him.

People who worship the furies tend to turn into elementals. Keep that in mind when you summon an elemental in the future, it might have been a mortal.

As for alignments and what they mean, you are still shoveling people into generalizations that just aren't true.

For example, Chaotic Evil. There's a certain demon prince who is Chaotic Evil, and people who deal with him actually find he's much more like a devil than a demon, because he has his own principals of how to go about things. However, any lawful actions he commits, like upholding agreements, are outweighed by his chaotic ones, so he's chaotic evil. What's even more interesting they talk about him having a romance and some sort of affection for a mortal. This demon was the Demon Prince Graz'zt. An outsider who should be 100% Chaotic and 100% Evil by your words and is neither.

How boring it'd be if anything WAS 100% of anything. A demon who doesn't stop to talk to people or give in to similar desires of mortals? That'd pretty much mean they'd just attack and die over and over again. And who are we to say what 100% anything means? Shar is supposedly the most evil force in the Realms, and look at HER portfolios.

[Laurk]

I don't know, I myself get a little board with "exceptions" and "humanized" monsters. I actually like earlier editions where there were things that were alien and difficult to comprehend. You can say they are borning, but honestly, why does everything have to be a human? Why can't there be at least a few types of monsters who really are completely unlike us? In the quest to turn everything into a human, its like D&D has lost a major part of what made many things alien and mysterious. What human mind can comprehend a being that is incapable of evil or good?

Also, just because all fiends are evil, certainly doesn't mean they wont talk to you. Infact because of the pact primeval and the fact that your soul has free will, they MUST talk to you because they really want your soul, and they cannot take it by force. That means that fiends will nearly always try to tempt or trick you out of it rather than just killing your body, because that gives them nothing beyond a bit of pleasure.

I base a lot of my RP of the fiends/celestials straight out of the Pact Primeval and early source concerning the war for souls. Naturally, several editions later, some things that were pretty concrete have been softened because everyone wants to the be exception to the rule until pretty soon, exceptions to the rule are all you see, and the rule has become the exception. Still even in the new stuff, they really haven't gone against these things when you really dig into it.

Many people do get beyond the evil of fiends and the good of celestials in the realms. Even these beings fall to evil or rise to good.

I'm not saying it's easy, it's actually pretty rare.

This is a good example, and pretty easy to defend when you dig into the lore a bit. The first thing, before I start is that its not rare, sadly. Like all things that are "supposed" to be rare, it comes up in NWN servers ad nasium. Nearly every server ive ever played on had "fallen angels" or "redeamed fiends" pop up. many PCs ive interacted knew of "good demons" or "bad angels." However, I make the argument that the source doesn't support these, at least, not as its often interpreted.

The Monster Manuel is pretty clear on the subject. fiends are "always" evil. Celestials (not neccesarily petitioners, but actual celestials) are "always" good. There is not a single case of a celestial, for example that "turned" evil due to any failing within itself. In every case, evil was "introduced" into it from outside.. such as how the Eerinies were changed into what they were because the "corrputing influence" of the hells seeped into their forms and litterally and physically "changed" them. Sometimes Celestials have been cursed for angering a powerful diety. But in every case, the evil came from without and was injected "into" the Celestial where before none had existed.

For a Celestial to "fall" of his own accord would require that he be capable of evil. However for a creature which is essentially manifest of "good energy" to have an "evil" impulse to fall victim too, you'd have to put evil into it first. It would be like trying to say that a Fire Elemental might turn into water. There's no water in it, that element does not exist in a fire elemental... you'd have to shove a hose into its mouth and turn the water on.

However the moment its alignment changes, its no longer a Celestial, it becomes something else.. just like when a powerful demon Lord decided he wanted to be a devil and he performed a ritual to change his alignment, he was no longer a demon, but actually physically changed into a Devil and went on to be Lord of the 6th.

The only debaitable example is Asmodeius himself who was the first "fallen angel." However most source agrees that its more likley he was a God than a fiend/celestial. Gods are not fiends and they are not restricted to their alignment.

I always think of true celestials and true fiends as elementals. Every elemental plane has its elemental entites. In the case of the elements of good and evil (which like postivie and negative energy, are actually tangible energies), these energies have coelesed into fiends and celestials. Naturally this doesn't account for mortal souls who enter their respective planes and form into one or the other, but the planes themselves will eventually shift those that live there to match their alignments, or else cease to exist around that entity if he/she cannot be turned.

This is the dynamic that plays such a key role in the war for souls mythos. As elemental evil increases, the boarders of Celestia must draw back because if powerful evil sets foot in Celestia (and vice versa) and is not expelled, that part of Celestia is gone, and becomes a chunk of territory from the fiend's own realm. As each alignmed realm gets souls, it grows in power. Each side believes that if it gets enough souls, they will get the upper hand and finally abolish the other from existance, hense why they are both always trying to get mortals to come their way. Mortal souls aer the perfect bait, since they all have both good and evil in them and can go either way.

As D&D gets older, and new expansions come out that want to be exceptions to the rule, im sure you'll find contradictions in source, like the demon you brought up who acts lawful and loves people. For my part, I don't care for that sort of thing because it makes it very difficult to RP a consistant canon reality when no rules ever apply. I suppose I would RP that that particular demon has adopted an act to fool someone or something for some reason, because love should not exist in a fiend. It could be too, that like Bane, he's not actually a fiend, but a God?

If there is any set of monsters in the D&D world who are immune to being R.A. Salvatoried... its fiends and celestials. For me, these are the "hands off" monster. Now there are good drow running around and orcs with nuclear families who just want to get along. I don't want to see this happen to the immortals.

[GodBeastX]

Sounds like a personal petpeeve of yours.

That demon example I gave you is a demon who has been in the D&D lore for ages.

Graz'zt was created by Gary Gygax and first appears in module The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth (1982),[3] and then appears in the first edition Monster Manual II (1983),[4] under the demon entry.

And to further add to this:

Graz'zt is a skilled politician, and when possible he prefers to solve confrontations with diplomacy and deals.

While you want celestials to embody your view and rationalized vision of what a celestial is, what a fiend is, what all these things are, that doesn't make it true. As I said, anything can be ultimate good or ultimate evil.

Monster Manual says fiends are evil, but check this blurb out from the monster manual:

Alignment
This line gives the alignment that the creature is most likely to
have.

There are tons of lore examples of differing alignments for all sorts of things that the monster manual labels as a specific alignment.

Forgotten Realms also CHANGES lore from typical D&D which is why I use Forgotten Realms examples OVER typical D&D because they do not match, for example:

Lich, it's listed in monster manual as "Alignment: Any evil."

In the realms, this is NOT true. They can be Good. There is a temple to Tyr, for example, where the high priest is a lich in 2nd and 3rd edition. There are also elven liches who are tomb protectors that are not evil. Magic even works different in the Realms than other campaign settings, how the dead are handled is different, how the planes are handled is different. So you have to use forgotten realms as your basis.

As for elemental example, it might seem logical to say this, and it might be partially true. They are sort of derived from element of good and law, but it is not the only logic in this case. Introducing water into a fire elemental, destroys it. Introducing evil into an angel does not destroy it.

One thing I will concede though is that an Angel that falls is no longer an angel. A fiend who rises, is no longer a fiend. It'd be like saying a fire elemental who turns to water, is a watery fire elemental. No it would be a water elemental.

The only question is, do angels have free will to be different unless something is introduced? They may not! They may only change if a force wills it on them. But then, how is the evil being injected? Asmodeus supposedly was fighting evil and got corrupted from doing it. Doesn't this mean just doing good angels can be corrupted then? If he was a god, what about the other angels who fall? Why are there erinyes? Did Bane walk into Heaven and corrupt them?

As for fiends (Not angels) it's been shown time and time again they have utter free will. Especially in Forgotten Realms. For example, many devils defect from hell regularly. They do things like serve Bane and other deities.

But the discussion is based on the question if angels are the ultimate good, or 100% good. Well, let's look at the forgotten realms. House of the Triad.

The House of the Triad

A resplendent plane of majestic marble halls, gleaming palaces, and heavenly radiance, the House of the Triad is the closest thing to a heaven in Toril’s cosmology. Law holds slightly more sway here than good, thanks to the presence of Helm and Siamorphe, but most of the plane still exemplifies the principles of good upheld by law and order.

HOUSE OF THE TRIAD TRAITS

The House of the Triad has the following traits.

•Alterable morphic. Each divine realm is divinely morphic.
•Strongly law-aligned and mildly good-aligned.

As you can see heaven of Toril is "Mildly Good" not "Ultimate good".

HOUSE OF THE TRIAD INHABITANTS

The archons, celestial embodiment of law and good, call the House of the Triad home. Most live on the great mountain called Celestia, but many serve Ilmater, Torm, and Tyr and dwell in their realms. Angels serve the Triad as well, undertaking the lion’s share of missions to other planes. Formians inhabit the plane and serve both Helm and Siamorphe when needed, though in general they live their ordered lives without divine disruption.

So angels dwell and serve in a place that is mildly good and according to Monster Manual, they are composed of the realm they exist in. That means that House of the Triad angels are only Slightly Good and strongly lawful.

That means that angels, in forgotten realms, are not the ultimate good at all.


However, I do agree, that exceptions to everything gets boring. We, as DMs, call that snowflakes. I do know where it comes from. Who wants to jump into an RP server and not be their own unique person? If everybody is the same, people feel like nothing they do matters. Everyone tries to stand out on the server in some way.

Snowflakes are sometimes physical. One person may want to be the one good drow. Other people might want to be the one evil Aasimar (Even though there isn't just one, heh).

But this isn't the only way people behave as snowflakes. For example, Abby's dogmatic approach to her religion and how she views things, acts, etc, makes her a snowflake. How many people play characters with that much zeal? Now if everyone did, perhaps Abby would be the one person without so much zeal.

The guy who plays the absolute nobody may seem like he's not being a snowflake, but on a server with a bunch of somebodies he's now made himself a snowflake.

And there is absolutely nothing wrong with any of that. But it's the exceptions that always make the stories, and you can go back through a history of D&D plots, the ones that stand out are always full of exceptions, because the normal is just day to day life and taken care of.

"Gods have great power!"

That was always true, then suddenly an exception occurs. Time of Troubles, now gods rely on worshipers, gods die like mortals, and world gets shook up.

Goblins are dumb brutes who get slaughtered by adventurers, that's normal. So I can run plots all day where people just slaughter goblins and be done with it.

But introduce an exception. One goblin becomes especially cunning and devises a way to lure adventurers into traps they didn't expect. Suddenly you have a story. Or maybe one goblin gets sick of his people trying to run at adventurers and kill themselves, so they start trying to make peace with adventurers who have a mind to slay them! Well, there is a new story.

That's why Stan Lee said what he did, "Whatever the writer wants to happen, will happen, he is the god of the world." He has the power to create the exception.

Ed Greenwood shows this in Forgotten Realms, and the DMs show this in Sundren.

Now, why am I even discussing all of this on exceptions? Simple, from the statement you made:

For my part, I don't care for that sort of thing because it makes it very difficult to RP a consistent canon reality when no rules ever apply.

I know you said humanizing everything has made it lose mystery and appeal, but to me, having or even forcing rules that can't be broken loses mystery and appeal. Let me explain what I mean:

At any given point and time on the server there are a toooooon of people who probably know way more about Forgotten Realms than me. Satoshi will tell you that I often ask him questions on things because I just don't know.

They've been playing D&D for years, they know the lore inside and out, and they are no longer surprised by things. In truth, this actually bleeds into some (Not all) of their RP.

"What? How?" you might imagine. Well, let me give you a simpler example. There's more complex ones, but this one will work.

A devil walks up to you and offers a pact for your soul. Players aren't going to do it. Why? Because devils are evil and that's my soul! Well, unless those players have the knowledge to know these things, they are actually metagaming. Do I tend to look at people's sheets, check if they have the knowledge, and then start accusing them? No. Now, lore wise, the average person in Forgotten Realms can't even tell a Erinyes from an Angel... so the Erinyes will use this deception to trick people. But wait, red wings, blue skin, people think that's an angel? YES! But players won't be tricked by that.

But the mysteries, and intrigues, are gone the moment you know everything about the world. You pretty much know what a devil's encounter is going to be like, what an angels is, what a goblin is, what an orc is.

That's ALOOOOOOT of pressure on a DM. Why do they get writer's block? Because they have the burden to tell stories to people who know everything, and the moment you either mistakenly or purposefully change something to add a new flavor or spice to something, there are tells hitting them "You're doing it wrong" or "That's not the way that works."

Mysteries come from NOT knowing, from walking in and just doing the best with what you got and surprising yourself. I tend to like to RP in settings where I don't know the lore like crazy, because when things happen it's fresh, and new, enjoyable. It drives me NUTs how many fantasy worlds base everything off Tolkien's works when saying "MAGIC" is an awesome way to explain things. That's why the Dark Crystal is such a good movie to me. A fantasy that isn't orcs, elves, gods and demons.

So in the end, just let things go and enjoy the ride. If you ever meet an angel who decides they are going to rebel against heaven, just RP it and forget the rules in books. Tell him he's been infested with evil if you like, maybe that's true! Let the DM have SOME mystery they can bring to the table.

DMing since 2006 does make it hard to come up with fresh plots when you've been doing it day in and day out without having access to a snowflake or two.

[Peridan]

The guy who plays the absolute nobody may seem like he's not being a snowflake, but on a server with a bunch of somebodies he's now made himself a snowflake.

No offense, but that kind of sounds super lame.

But I enjoy the rest of your points!

[GodBeastX]

No offense, but that kind of sounds super lame.

But I enjoy the rest of your points!

Shut up nobody

I was actually thinking of this guy who was on a local vault server full of demons, super wizards, monsters and more. And he just made a level 1 nobody named Comm Oner. He was a snowflake commoner

[Peridan]

My God.

I have so much to learn.

[Doubtful]

Ah, the old "you're doing it wrong" pm.

Nothing kills the fun and enthusiasm of eventing for people faster than some whiny little /t about how you've overlooked some peice of obscure lore or hidden footnote and then demand you retcon the entire event that you and several other have been enjoying for the past god knows how long.

[greypawn]

Ah, the old "you're doing it wrong" pm.

Nothing kills the fun and enthusiasm of eventing for people faster than some whiny little /t about how you've overlooked some peice of obscure lore or hidden footnote and then demand you retcon the entire event that you and several other have been enjoying for the past god knows how long.

If you aren't making enough mistakes then you aren't learning enough.

[cmosier]

Ah, the old "you're doing it wrong" pm.

Nothing kills the fun and enthusiasm of eventing for people faster than some whiny little /t about how you've overlooked some peice of obscure lore or hidden footnote and then demand you retcon the entire event that you and several other have been enjoying for the past god knows how long.

Most of my PMs are either Blackwood related or red wizards making sexual advances toward both my character and me as a player.

Yea... Canon in Fantasy games has always bugged me... I'm looking at you Dark Sun with your Wind Surfing druids. It was stupid then and it's stupid now! I don't want Wind Surfing druids in my game! AHHHHH! NO! NO! NO!

[Lotus]

It's important to note that no matter what all of the lore books and supplements say, the DM always has the last word. All of these materials are guidelines and frameworks within which to build a world. We're always at our own discretion as storytellers to alter the details as we see fit.