2da Editing (Sundren)

[Rithix]

Hi, KingArthur here. I could do all the work necessary to fix momf, I would just require the 'stats' that are 'acceptable' for each form. I do not want to seem bias, due to me having a momf IN game. Though it is not my main I don't want to make those choices. Clearly, as they are now they are a bit underpowered.




I have found the location of a few interesting things...

Question: Where does Sundren keep its 'natural' weapons? The picture is a bit fuzzy, but as you can see each 'monster' shape has a natural weapon, up to three, given to them. They go by the names of...

nw_it_crewpsp010
nw_it_crewpsp009
nw_it_crewpsp001

I Know x2_it_crewpsp002 = 4-24 damage
nw_it_crewpsp010 = 1-6
NW_IT_CREWPP010 = 1-8
nw_it_crewpsp015 = 1-12
nw_it_crewps017 = 1-16

.. Ect... I can't find them- I don't know if they are changable, however I do know they contain the 'values' of damage such as '1-6' or '1-12' damage. Perhaps there is a system I am not aware of. Anyone have some insight?


Here it is a little bigger...

I have looked in all the .hak files, I am not sure if they are hard coded somewhere, or actual 'weapons'.

Foogoo has kindly informed me that Sundren has a no 'One shot Dev' policy. To which I say, I would enjoy working with you guys to do changes, however I am not at the 'state' of 2da editing that I would find acceptable joining the dev team for said purpose. I can map a bit, but I am afraid I don't have the time to do it in mass quantity as I am in school.


Dragons do 1-6 damage, Rabbits do 1-8...

[Lotus]

We know how to edit 2das. If we knew what values we wanted to assign to improve the forms, we'd just do it. Updating the forms to be better and balanced requires much more research and comparison, and that's time that is currently allocated to higher priorities.

[Rithix]

Would there be opposition if I layed out a sample of the forms, there current state, and change? Then, with review, accepted or changed. I am willing to do most of the work here.

My count is 42-50 (Dragons and elementals have multiple 'teirs') forms that would need editing.

As someone who has done the grind of momf 3-18, I can honestly say I have experienced most of the tiers through leveling, and their usefulness. The only ones I have not seen/used are 1) level 20 Elder elementals, and 2) Level 22 Elder Dragons. (Though by the look of them in the 2da, they are just as bad.)

A simple example would be changing the 1-6's of the dragons to 1-12's, with proper strength, Dex, and Con modifiers.

[Lotus]

No one's going to mind if you throw some spreadsheets up. Knock yourself out.

[Rithix]

First up:

Wild shape Humanoid (1): Orc, Kobold, Gnoll, Goblin, Lizard Man

Current stats...

                        STR       CON       DEX       AC        Attack
Orc                     17         *        *         +2       1-8 Spear
Kobold                 *          *        13       +5        1-8 Spear
Gnoll                   15        13       *         +3        1-8 Axe
Goblin                  *          *       13        +5        1-6 Short sword
Lizard man               13        13       *        +4        1-8 Spear

Now, my opinion of this level is extremely weak. At this time I was attempting to level around moss claws, and these forms didn't do much. Perhaps moving all stats up a bit would be a move in the right direction. +1 or +2 AC to the lower AC, as well as Moving all the CON scores up to 16 or 14. The STR on the Orc should be rounded to 18, Gnoll and lizard to 16. Dex should perhaps be left at the player's stat.

                        STR       CON    DEX      AC        Attack
Orc                     18         16       *        +4       1-8 Spear 
Kobold                 *          *        15       +6        1-8 Spear
Gnoll                   16        16       *        +5        1-8 Axe
Goblin                  *          *       14       +7        1-6 Short sword
Lizard man               16        16       *        +6        1-8 Spear

At this level, MoMfs usually have barkskin. So a around 11 AC, +3, +6 (From Kobold) +2 dodge (From kobold dex) would put you around 22 AC.

Now, the AB is another concern, but I am not able to identify anything that would change the druid's base AB any higher. These forms in my opinion need a 'survivability' buff overall, which is shown in the increased stats. Clearly these are still low teir, but at this level, a little help would nice for leveling.

Wild shape Giant Humanoid (2): Hill Giant (12), Frost Giant (14), Fire Giant (15), Ogre, Troll

                        STR       CON      DEX        AC          Attack
Ogre                     21       15          *     +7       1-10 GreatClub
Fire giant               31       21          *     +11        3-18 +3 +1d6 Cold Great Axe 
Troll                    23        23         14     +4        1-6 Natural
Hill Giant               21        19          *     +10          1-10+1 Greatclub
Frost Giant              29        21         *     +11        3-18 +3 +1d8 Fire Claymore

To be honest, I believe these are the ones you guys edited, and in my opinion are good for their level/use!

Wild shape Domestic (2): Cow, Pig, Cat, Chicken, Horse

Cow is pretty OP compared to chicken, but I am not going to touch these.

Wild shape Monstrous Humanoid (3): Gargoyle, Annis Hag, Grimlock

                        STR       CON      DEX        AC          Attack
Gargoyle                 15         18      14      +7       1-4, 1-4, 1-6 Natural
Annis Hag                 25         14     *        *        1-6 Natural, 1-6 Natural, 1-12 Natural
Grimlock                  19        13       13      +4        1-8 Axe

I didn't use anything from this level, I experimented and they were all too weak. My suggestion is keep the 'Mechanics' of each. It seems the Gargoyle was the tank, Annis was the damage, and Grimlock was the medium. However, the problem with this setup is, at this low level people only have 1 attack. They can't even use those later attacks. I suggest stat increases and and AC across the board.

                        STR       CON      DEX        AC          Attack
Gargoyle                 18         18      14      +9       1-6, 1-6, 1-8 Natural
Annis Hag                 26         14     *        +4        1-8 Natural, 1-8 Natural, 1-10 Natural
Grimlock                  22        14       12      +6        1-8 Axe

Wild shape Dire (4): Wolf, Badger, Bear, Boar, Panther

                        STR       CON      DEX        AC          Attack
Wolf                     25       17          15     +3       1-8 Natural
Badger                   14       19          17     +3        1-4, 1-4, 1-6 Natural 
Bear                     31        19         13     +7        2-8, 2-8, 2-16 Natural
Boar                     27        17          10    +6          1-8 Natural
Panther                  27        17         15     +6        2-8, 2-8, 2-12 Natural

By this time, you should be around level 9-10 range. I used the bear for most of my leveling, its quite powerful.

                        STR       CON      DEX        AC          Attack
Wolf                     25       17          15     +7       2-8, 2-8, 2-12 Natural
Badger                   14       19          17     +3        1-4, 1-4, 1-6 Natural 
Bear                     31        19         13     +7        2-8, 2-8, 2-16 Natural
Boar                     28        17          12    +8          2-8, 2-8, 1-10 Natural
Panther                  27        17         15     +7        2-8, 2-8, 2-12 Natural

I don't even understand the badger, but these are my suggestions for this tier. Small AC buffs, and giving some forms decent natural weapon chains.

Wild shape Vermin (5): Beetle, Spider, Giant Beetle, Giant Spider

Alright, these forms need a big buff, in my opinion.

                        STR       CON      DEX        AC          Attack
Beetle                    *        *           *     +7       1-2 Natural
Spider                   **       **          17     +7        1-8 Natural 
Giant Beetle            23        17         **     +1        4-24, 4-24 Natural
Giant Spider            15        **          17    +5          1-8, Natural

Clearly the 'small' forms are for RP, so I won't touch those. The beetle is a bit of a glass cannon, which is a bit strange. By this level you are versing things that are quite tough and have High AB like the lizards in Sestra.

                        STR       CON      DEX        AC          Attack
Beetle                    *        *           *     +7       1-2 Natural
Spider                   **       **          17     +7        1-8 Natural 
Giant Beetle            30        18         7     +12        1-12, 4-24 Natural
Giant Spider            22        16          16    +8          1-8, 4-16, Natural

I do not know how to give DR/Regen/AB in the 2da, I am doing the best I can to make these forms seem 'good enough' without those in mind.

Wild shape Tiny (6): Rabbit, Weasel, Bat, Rat, Bird

RP forms, fine how they are!

Wild shape Aberration (6): Mindflayer, Beholder (13), Umber Hulk

                        STR       CON      DEX        AC          Attack
Mindflayer                 **         **      14      +3       4-16 Natural
Beholder                 **         18     14        +8        2-8 Natural
Umberhulk                  23        19       13      +7        2-8, 2-8, 2-16 Natural

Mind flayer and Beholder both are 'spell' based. I don't believe they need any big changes mechanically. However, I think the Umberhulk should be viable in melee.

                        STR       CON      DEX        AC          Attack
Mindflayer               **         **      14      +5       4-16 Natural
Beholder                 **         18     14        +8        2-8 Natural
Umberhulk                32         22       14      +10        1-12, 1-12 , 2-16 Natural

Wild shape Plant (7): Treant, Shambling Mound

                        STR       CON      DEX        AC          Attack
Trent                   29         21      8      +13       2-12 Natural
Shambling Mound         21         17      10      +11       2-12 Natural

By this time, people are in argyle or above. These forms did prove useful in the AC department, though I wish regen could be added to the shambling mound, and DR to the trent. (Because they are plants and it kind of fits.)

                        STR       CON      DEX        AC          Attack
Trent                   32         22      8      +17       2-12 Natural
Shambling Mound         28         20      10      +16       2-12 Natural

Wild shape Fey (8): Dryad, Pixie

These are casters, and although their spells stink (For the amount of levels put into this class with no spell progression.), I think they serve a purpose in not only RP, but people wanting to use said spells.

They each have +2 Daggers, and are not suited for melee.

Wild shape Elemental (9): Huge Elementals, Ancient Elementals (20)

Mmm elements. In my opinion these forums should each have somthing that makes them special, I am unable to add effects to them however myself. Fire: Should have an 'elemental shield' when hit, damage is dealt back. Water: Small Regen Earth: DR Air: 20% concealment

                        STR       CON      DEX        AC          Attack
Huge Fire              18       18           25     +6       2-16+1d8 Fire Natural
Huge Earth             29       21          8     +13        2-20 Natural 
Huge Air               18        18         29     +6        2-16, Natural
Huge Water             24        21          18    +11          2-20, Natural

To... around...

                        STR       CON      DEX        AC          Attack
Huge Fire              20       18           25     +7       2-16+1d8 Fire Natural
Huge Earth             30       21          8     +15        2-20 Natural 
Huge Air               18        18         29     +7        2-16, Natural
Huge Water             24        21          18    +12          2-20, Natural

To be honest they are fairly balanced as is. A small AC buff to the huge would be nice- However there are 'Elders' you get at level 20. They are balanced as is, and have fairly high Stats.

[Rithix]

                        STR       CON      DEX        AC          Attack
Elder Fire              22       18           29     +11       2-16+1d8 Fire Natural (Unknown)
Elder Earth             33       21          8     +18        2-20 Natural  (Unknown)
Elder Air               22        18         33     +11        2-16, Natural (Unknown)
Elder Water             28        21          22    +12          2-20, Natural (Unknown)

See? Pretty good right off the bat!

Wild shape Draconic (10): Wyvern, Wyrmling, Young Dragon (17), Young Adult Dragon (22)

Dargons.

This what they are...


This is what we gotta make them.


Lets start with Wyrmlings (Young Dragons)! You get this at below level 17.

                        STR       CON      DEX        AC          Attack
Young Red               15       15           **     +13       1-3, 1-3, 1-4 Natural
Young Blue              13       13          **     +14        1-3, 1-3, 1-4 Natural
Young Black             12        13         **     +15        1-3, 1-3, 1-4 Natural
Young Bronze            13        13          **    +14          1-3, 1-3, 1-4 Natural

I'll be honest, I am not mad at baby dragons being weak. It makes sense. However, this is level 17, and it will be hard to justify trying to be useful in these forms.

                        STR       CON      DEX        AC          Attack
Young Red               21       17           **     +17       1-8, 1-8, 1-12 Natural
Young Blue              17       15          **     +18        1-8, 1-8, 1-12 Natural
Young Black             15        15         **     +19        1-8, 1-8, 1-12 Natural
Young Bronze            17        15          **    +18         1-8, 1-8, 1-12 Natural

Fair enough, in my opinion. Now, on to the Young Adults.

Young Adult Dragons

                        STR       CON      DEX        AC          Attack
Young Adult Red               21       17           **     +17       1-6, 1-6, 1-8 Natural
Young Adult Blue              17       15          **     +18       1-6, 1-6, 1-8 Natural
Young Adult Black             15        15         **     +19        1-6, 1-6, 1-8 Natural
Young Adult Bronze            17        15          **    +18         1-6, 1-6, 1-8 Natural

Should be...

                        STR       CON      DEX        AC          Attack
Young Adult Red            36       21           14     +26       2-20, 2-20, 2-24 Natural
Young Adult Blue           34       22          15     +27        2-20, 2-20, 2-24 Natural
Young Adult Black          32        24         16     +28        2-20, 2-20, 2-24 Natural
Young Adult Bronze        34        22          15    +27       2-20, 2-20, 2-24 Natural

The above are the stats (Not the damage) are the ones used for the 'Adult' Dragon forms at level 22.

Now we must remember, no gear except rings transfers over. Assuming you have a druid with around 15 AC due to 2 dex and +3 ring, that would be 15+26 to make 41 AC. These stats reflect the current 'Adult dragons' you get at level 22. A good example is a Wizard with Horned devil form: A wizard with 16 AC can polymorph into a devil for 35AC, which then can be buffed to around 51AC. The devil gives a wopping +26AC, without buffs AND DR, AND Regen.

Adult Dragons

                        STR       CON      DEX        AC          Attack
Young Adult Red            27       21           **     +21       2-20, 2-20, 2-24 Natural
Young Adult Blue           23       19          **     +22        2-20, 2-20, 2-24 Natural
Young Adult Black          21        17         **     +23        2-20, 2-20, 2-24 Natural
Young Adult Bronze         23        19          **    +22       2-20, 2-20, 2-24 Natural

Those are the base Adult dragons, clearly they should be more powerful for level 22.

Wyvern
He is a common pool dragon that doesn't change at all and you get immediately.

                        STR       CON      DEX        AC          Attack
Wyvern                     19       15           **     +12       1-8, 2-12, 2-16 Natural

Changed to around

                        STR       CON      DEX        AC          Attack
Wyvern                     30       24           **     +20       1-8, 2-12, 2-16 Natural

He has a special 1d8 attack, that does con damage. Seems to be his staple (Attached to the first 1-8 attack.)



__________________________________________________ _____________________________________________

Feel free to suggest things, or talk about my problems. I wish to balance these not shape them in my image. So please, I am not the master of balance, voice concerns. 'This is a too powerful concept' stuff.

[Jhickey]

BA is always based on the original form in any kind of polymorph/wild Shape, unless it is specified in the spell/ability. So its the MoMF's Base attack + stats of the form taken. As per shape shifting rules.

[Rithix]

BA is always based on the original form in any kind of polymorph/wild Shape, unless it is specified in the spell/ability. So its the MoMF's Base attack + stats of the form taken. As per shape shifting rules.

Ah, alright! Thanks

[Mournas]

Daawww wook at dah baby drwagon!

[Rithix]

The level 9 spell: Shape change, wizards can polymorph for a wooping +26AC, before buffs. This form has 10/DR and 5 Regen.

                        STR       CON      DEX        AC          Attack
Horned Devil            31        25         25       +19      2-12, 2-12, 2-16

19 (Natural) + 7 (Dodge from Dex) = 26.

With buffs, I could reach 51AC (As a wizard horned devil)

EDIT: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/mon...ent-red-dragon

CR 19 Dragon in pathfinder... The 'Young' description dosn't really fit the 'Challenge' / level sundren is at.

"Str 39, Dex 8, Con 27, Int 20, Wis 21, Cha 20"
"AC 38, touch 5, flat-footed 38 (-1 Dex, +33 natural, -4 size)"