How to: Detect stealthers with skill alone!

[Catastrophe]

I'm just going to posit that Lilene's stealth skills are in the mid 40's, because she does not have access to uber stealth gear. That's pretty much eboncoin only as far as I understand. She is very detectable, despite her level, resources, and even vampiric nature.

There is some stealth gear that can be obtained by those not in the Eboncoin, but when getting that gear you are going for things that don't protect as well as others.

[Kaeldorn]

There is actually an easy way to balance stacking skill bonuses:

Put all skill bonuses on specific items only.

Hide only goes on cloaks.
Move silently only goes on boots.
Listen/spot only goes on heads.
Etc.

Then you'd get only one slot for bonuses.

Pathfinder takes this approach and also extends it to Stat bonus items as well:

All Strength/Dex/Con items go on belts.
All Int/Wis/Cha items go on headbands.

That way you have to choose which stats you want to get bonuses since you only have one slot to fill it. At later levels, Pathfinder puts multiple stat bonuses on these items (example: head band of int and wis +2), but those items are made about 50% more expensive than the two seperate items would be combined.

Just an development idea.

I proposed that in the other thread. Or at least restricting bonuses on any other item to +1 at most...

I'm for it, though. Makes everything much easier to balance.

[crazyjerren]

Pathfinder takes this approach and also extends it to Stat bonus items as well:

All Strength/Dex/Con items go on belts.
All Int/Wis/Cha items go on headbands.

That way you have to choose which stats you want to get bonuses since you only have one slot to fill it. At later levels, Pathfinder puts multiple stat bonuses on these items (example: head band of int and wis +2), but those items are made about 50% more expensive than the two seperate items would be combined.

Yay pathfinder reference! DnD 3.75!

Perhaps I may direct your attention to the last two panels of:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0656.html

Ok, we have the solution.. we need more doors.

^^lawl^^

[The Butcher]

Buffs that last for a few minutes/rounds tops and require expensive potions that are entirely wasted if someone doesn't happen to come along stealthed. Not very viable if you're supposed to stand guard for an RP session of half an hour or more. Let alone detecting someone who is trailing you while you're on a mission of some sort.

I was talking about giving these buffs to the stealther, to improve their stealth. Most of the examples I have given don't rely on minute/level or round/level spells, though they do help.

Balancing around 20 rolls is not balancing.

You are correct; this isn't balancing around 20 rolls. It's balancing around getting 1 roll per 6 seconds, or 1 roll per second to detect them.

[The Butcher]

Another number crunch.

Let's say you have 35 Listen, and they have 54 Move Silently.

There is only a 5% chance you will roll a 20, and a 5% that they will roll a 1. A 5% chance within a 5% chance to actually hear this person. This is a 0.25% of listening to someone, but you get this chance every six seconds.

Theoretically, you will need 400 checks to detect them, and once you do, you are done. How long does 400 checks take? About 40 minutes (10 per minute), or 7 minutes if you're an elf (1 per second).

Add one more skill point to listen. 10% to roll within detecting him range, and 10% of him rolling in a range to be detected; 1% to detect him. Theoretically, this takes 100 rolls to reach 100%. A human will detect them within 10 minutes, an elf 2 minutes.


One more point. 15% within 15%. Theoretical 45 checks before making success. 4.5 minutes for a non-elf, and under a minute for an elf.

Consider how long RP sessions last; my brief, insignificant RP (nodding, greeting, etc.) last about 5 to 10 minutes. My 1v1 significant RP lasts about 40, and DM events last a few hours.

This makes a single point of listen very important, and the rogue's ability to stack gear even more important to them, as I showed everyone a multitude of ways to beat their stealth with skills, feats, and equipment that is available to everyone.

[Raksha]

Okay, I'm compelled to chime in here, Butcher. Your math is a bit off. To get the successive chance of detection, you actually take the chance of not detecting them (say, 19/20) for each round, for however many rounds, then take the reciprocal of that. Err... at least I think so. Point is, you'll never reach a point where you're at 100% detection of a stealth character. You could just roll a 1 every round.

However, the basic premise is sound. ^_^ Stealth on an RP PW is a one-or-zero thing. Because of the length of conversations compared to the number of stealth checks, the stealther is either impossible to detect or will get found out.

[Philosopher]

Stealth on an RP PW is a one-or-zero thing. Because of the length of conversations compared to the number of stealth checks, the stealther is either impossible to detect or will get found out.

This is the essence of the argument supporting stealthers, and I agree with it. The nature of the detection mechanics does not balance properly with the amount of time people type and RP. There's just no way to do it in real time. In pnp, the DM typically asks for ONE stealth check from the sneaker in a scene, and thats it. You're discovered or you're not (unless something in the scene changes and another check is justified.) The DM doesn't ask for a stealth check round by round unless it's combat. Since we simply cannot replicate that here in nwn2, the end result must be that stealthers gain a significant advantage, or they will fail every time.

[The Butcher]

Okay, I'm compelled to chime in here, Butcher. Your math is a bit off. To get the successive chance of detection, you actually take the chance of not detecting them (say, 19/20) for each round, for however many rounds, then take the reciprocal of that.

My math may very well be wrong, since I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to accomplish with the reciprocal of 19/20, or whatever "that" is, but the point you make on never making 100% is true; that is why I said theoretically.

Just like how if you had 35 listen and he had 17 Move Silently, he could roll 20s and you 1s for the rest of eternity.

[Kangleton]

Circumstantial evidence:

Karthus wears a blindfold and still spots everyone. He only has 17 levels of Druid and is a human. What the fuck.

[roguethree]

Add one more skill point to listen. 10% to roll within detecting him range, and 10% of him rolling in a range to be detected; 1% to detect him. Theoretically, this takes 100 rolls to reach 100%. A human will detect them within 10 minutes, an elf 2 minutes.

This is where the math breaks down. Adding one point to listen doesn't subtract one point from move, and so it's 10% to roll within detecting range if the mover rolls a 1 (5%).

In the first example, you have a 0.25% chance of detecting each roll, 400 rolls.

In the second example, you have a 0.5% chance of detecting, 200 rolls.

Third example: 0.75% chance, 133.33 rolls.

Assume 20% of the die range when the opponent rolls a 1: 100 rolls.

[Kaeldorn]

The DM doesn't ask for a stealth check round by round unless it's combat. Since we simply cannot replicate that here in nwn2, the end result must be that stealthers gain a significant advantage, or they will fail every time

Not really. There's nothing wrong with them always failing if they hang out in one spot long enough for someone with a reasonable level of spot to detect them.

The question is, what's reasonable?

I find it reasonable if someone who has 23 skill ranks in spot and listen as well as a few +spot/listen items that amount to, say, +5 or so, will eventually detect anyone if they stick around long enough. Opposed DCs reaching into the 50s or 60s is absurd.. It's not like just anyone will be able to detect the top stealthers that way, only those that have specifically invested 20 levels worth of skillpoints to do it. Or those who make use of very short duration spells to find someone they already know is there. Where's the harm in that?

[Cornuto]

From what you wrote it sounds like you're arguing that putting 23 skill points into spot or listen should give you a guaranteed chance to spot any rogue ever, no matter how invested they are.

I'll say it again. If you want to spot someone entirely invested to stealth, your character should be equally invested in detection.

[Intrepid42]

I'd just like to remind all those potential Exigo customers that spells of level 3 or less can be brewed. Also, that level 1 spells, such as Amplify, are very reasonably priced with the custom scripting Sundren uses for Brew Potion.

That is all.

[Kaizen]

Or those who make use of very short duration spells to find someone they already know is there.

Problem is, people usually 'know' they are there by pressing the 'p' button and meta'ing it. I've seen it happen a shit ton. But that's getting off topic...

[Kaeldorn]

I'll say it again. If you want to spot someone entirely invested to stealth, your character should be equally invested in detection.

Which is why I think the maximum ability to invest in it through gear should be brought down to like +12 or so. Then it becomes less of a competition of who can get the most insanely high bonus. You can then still use on use items or spells to outclass characters who don't use them, and if they use their 'counters' the detectors should get the upper hand again. That's an advantage to the stealthers, because the detectors won't know when to use said items/spells. If they're willing to invest to constantly keep those bonuses up, just in case, then props to them.

Problem is, people usually 'know' they are there by pressing the 'p' button and meta'ing it. I've seen it happen a shit ton. But that's getting off topic...

People who metagame it should get their arse kicked. Balance shouldn't take them into account.